Speaker 1 (00:00)
Today we have Greg Falk from Omen Foils.
Speaker 2 (00:04)
I I paid some guy down there named Bruce and I only had like 150 bucks. I was like, this is what I have for a lesson. He's like, I can't teach you to kite with $150. And I was like, well, we can start, right? So like what advice I've given to wingers who are really interested in the parrowing. My first question is like, well, how long? I grab all of them and then I do the armpit. And I've never had a full start. Like you hear me like elegantly describing this technique. Then you see me on the water. It's like I'm having a seizure.
But I actually had an idea on this. I had this like tripod bag. I wanted to talk about this thing that I'm doing now with the harness. I've been thinking about this a lot since ditching the board leash.
Speaker 1 (00:44)
with Alula is super cool for us to understand like where can we take parrowing materials
Speaker 2 (00:50)
You've got different high performance fibers.
Speaker 1 (00:52)
Replacing your favorite wing with a power wing is quite a statement these days.
Speaker 2 (00:56)
And I really don't see myself ever using a four meter wing again. Wow.
Daniel Paronetto (01:12)
to the LabRat Foiler podcast. My name is Dan and today we have Greg Falck from Omen Foils, Omen Boards. Greg, welcome to the podcast,
Greg (01:22)
Hey Dan, how's it going?
Daniel Paronetto (01:24)
very well. I've been following your videos on YouTube for a little while. β Up to the date that I heard my name on one of them and I'm β my God, he said my name. And I was like, that's cool. Cause those initial videos that I put out kind of was, you know, the purpose of them was to help people. like, like you said, it was like something that helped you out. So I'm happy that you watched them. I'm not sure how much you watched them cause they're quite long, but anyway, β
Greg (01:53)
I watched
them. I watched the whole thing. Yeah, because I was I was trying to decide I had that that BRM which I love the concept and like obviously it was kind of the first one that you could go upwind and then when I saw yours on the flow I don't think I really would have looked at the flow otherwise, but I mean I had You know essentially a winter season on the flow and it was such a huge improvement. So yeah, I owe you one
Daniel Paronetto (01:59)
Mm-hmm.
Those early days were really interesting because, β I have in my mind, this little timeline of a sequence of events that happened that really changed the game. And I think the flow has like stamped its, β you know, name in that history with the stability that they came out with. β and then set the benchmark for what parawings needed to have from that point on was, it was really awesome. β and now we have so many options, man.
I don't know if you've been writing a lot of them, but there's a lot of good stuff out there. β So it's cool, it's exciting to see. The evolution has been so quick.
Greg (02:50)
Yeah, I haven't ridden a lot of them, other, but I'm on the OZones now, which I'm super happy with. I'm keen to try others, but yeah, I've been loving the Ozone wings.
Daniel Paronetto (02:55)
Mm-hmm. They're great.
Yeah, they're, they're awesome wings, man. I look, we have so much to talk about. β we're going to be talking about, β location spots, techniques. β a lot of the stuff that you put online comes with this very analytical, technical kind of skew, which I love. β so I'm, I'm definitely going to pick your brains are on a few of those topics that you mentioned in your videos before. β but before we start getting into all that juicy stuff, let's hear a little bit about you. I know you have a kite foiling background.
as well. I'm just curious to understand a little bit about board writing history and what do you bring to power winging in your, in your bag of tools.
Greg (03:39)
Yeah, I guess I got into kiting pretty early. My uncle had a trailer in La Ventana that I visited down when I was 18, and I saw guys kiting. And even before then, I think it was like 12 or 13. So this must have been the very early days of kiteboarding. β
I'd been at my cousin's place and they had a wakeboard boat and I just like adored wakeboarding. I thought it was the coolest thing in the world and I had snowboarded and skateboarded but I was always really attracted to the water side of it and there was this guy with this like weird little booth at some community thing and he was advertising kites. He didn't even have a picture he just had like a brochure with like hand-drawn pictures of it and like prices and I but I he told me about it I was like I could wakeboard without
having to buy a boat and I was just like infatuated with the idea and then yeah visiting my uncle and seeing these guys on sea kites so like I remember I paid some guy down there named Bruce and I only had like 150 bucks so was like this is what I have for a lesson he's like I can't teach you to kite with 150 dollars and I was like well we can start right so like yeah we did like an hour and a half of lessons and then my uncle lent me which was his old sea kite which is his like 2005 so that was a really old kite and yeah I just
Daniel Paronetto (04:23)
Hmm.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (04:51)
like dragged myself around the beach. And luckily it wasn't as crowded back then as it is now, but β yeah, that was my kiting entry.
Daniel Paronetto (05:00)
β Did you get into like wake style riding initially because of your wakeboarding kind of background or did you go for like, you know, big airs or free riding? What were you doing?
Greg (05:11)
Mostly just free ride. was I was in like I was an engineer so and I went like the military route
So I really only like did serious kiting for one week a year when I could travel to visit my uncle in Mexico or maybe two weeks. And then I was like getting these intermittent light wind sessions. So I had a skim board, like a big skim board that I was kind of like my local thing. And then just trying to boost as high as I could. β Really when I was traveling and some basic kind of like free ride, freestyle tricks. β And then kite foiling, when that came around, I was super into that just because you could be on like the smaller kites that I wanted to be on and, and go fast and get up in light wind.
Daniel Paronetto (05:42)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (05:48)
So that was really appealing. β But I was really only a light wind kite foiler. I switched to strapless freestyle when it was say like...
16-17 knots and above β and that was I got really into that and yeah the kite foiling was something that it was like You weren't really I was still I wasn't on like the foil kite So you couldn't really chase waves with it like you could occasionally get some turns and it was also I was on a fast kite foil So it just didn't really work for you can you know? Just kind of do like one rip down the wave and a turn and then like be looping your kite β
Daniel Paronetto (06:23)
It does
build your kite skills so much when you kite foil. I remember, β the few twin tip sessions I had after I started kite foiling, went back to the kite and I'm like, my God, I can fly this thing so much better now because you, you do have to keep the tension on the lines and fly the kite more aggressively with the kite foil. So it's a great tool to learn how to fly a kite. Absolutely.
Greg (06:26)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I was pretty inspired by Greg β from BRM just with his like insane kite flying. And I never like got near that point, but I really enjoy the kite flying aspect of it. Something I missed in winging and para-winging too. It's not really like fun to fly a para-wing the same way that it's fun to fly a kite. β
Daniel Paronetto (06:51)
Mm-hmm.
β Yep.
Yeah.
You can play around a lot with a kite. β did you, well, so you did a little bit of kite foiling, β and, and then you got into winging after that.
Greg (07:20)
Yeah, think my first, the kite foiling, and then I got into prone foiling as I got out of the military and moved up to the West Coast here about 10 years ago and started a, a, for two years I had this kite adventure tour company on the North Island teaching kiting and taking people on like tours of some secluded spots up here. And then I got a job at Ocean Rodeo so I could really like.
I was just into it, right? And they had a technical job with this new like material company, which turned into Alula. And yeah, so...
So yeah, I got into surfing when I moved down, so maybe like seven years ago. And then as soon as I saw that video with Kai Lenny pumping, like I forget, was, yeah, it was around then he was like linking multiple waves and I was kite foiling at the time. I was like, that is so cool. So I took my like two years of experience surfing. So I was already not a great surfer, but I was, you know, head over heels for it and went to foil surfing. And I was actually kind of a bit of a holdout with winging like, cause I love kite foiling and strapless β
Daniel Paronetto (08:17)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (08:26)
kite surfing so much and surf foiling and I saw the people winging and it just kind of looked like I don't know, there's nothing there for me. But it's like then when you actually feel it and go downwind and you realize this is not that far off prone foiling when you're flagged out. β Yeah, I tried it and fell in love with it mostly because actually I guess it was because Ocean Rodeo was building prototype wings so I just
Daniel Paronetto (08:40)
yeah.
Greg (08:49)
got some for free. It's like, of course, you you're going to try, which I had my prone foil set up. So I definitely struggled a lot. But yeah, made it happen.
Daniel Paronetto (08:55)
Nice. Yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting how when, know, a new sport comes out like that, it takes a little while for people to get good at it and make it look good or sort of take it where it, where it's interesting to a place where you look at what they're doing and they're like, okay, I want to do that. And the wing was like that to me as well. I looked at it and I'm like, Nope, not for me. And when I saw people taking it into the surf, I'm like, okay, I get it. You can surf and, um, the progression from.
Greg (09:16)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (09:28)
That feeling of feeling free going from kite foiling to the wing was pretty big. Like you said, surfing a wave on the kite, it's pretty tough. You might get slack on the lines for let's say four seconds, you know, on a turn or something. And then you're, you're powered up again. So it's a very minimal free experience. And then the wing kind of brought that to us, right. It brought us into flagging the wing and being able to go down, downwind or surf a wave and.
That's where I got interested in it β as well. And I got pretty into it. And, and then now power winging, right? β You, when was the first time you saw the power wing? Do you still remember? Cause now this question is getting a little older thing. Cause people are like, it's been a while now.
Greg (10:09)
Well, I was, I s-
Yeah, I didn't sleep on parawinging early. I was actually, I was playing around with a couple prototypes actually, like just an independent thing. Cause I had been doing the drop anchor thing with winging. Cause I wanted downwind sup, right? Like I saw people doing that. like, that's what I want to do. But here the shuttling, the logistics just don't work out for it if you've got a job and...
life and because our coastline is so is so tricky for that so that was really my substitute for downwind sup is like doing this drop anchor and so I kind of independently came to that idea of like if we could have a foil so I kind of built a few janky prototypes and then I saw the pocket wing the the Maui one and it's like okay that's that's rad β
Daniel Paronetto (11:00)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (11:06)
And I think I asked him on Instagram, like one of his first videos, like, can you go up wind? And he's like, kind of. And I was like, okay.
Daniel Paronetto (11:11)
Yeah, it's like, just,
Greg (11:14)
yeah, then I saw Greg release his and I had done the bar like a kite bar, whereas Greg doing it like a wing boom was like brilliant. And I think a lot of people...
Daniel Paronetto (11:23)
Hmm
Greg (11:26)
Like it seems so simple to do that, but I do think that's a pretty brilliant little innovation and it just makes it so much better. Cause when I was trying to do it, just, it wasn't, didn't work very well. Kite bar style. So then yeah, I ordered one of those as soon as I could. Actually, I don't know if you know Jim Stringfellow. He's a, he's like a long time foiling guy. He was making G10 β foil wings in like the very early days. I think it's the first foil a guy might.
Daniel Paronetto (11:44)
No, who is he?
Greg (11:55)
be wrong, but it might be the first foil that Greg Drexler was on in those early days is his and he's a photographer and he does like he does all sorts of custom fuselages now so if you have like a no-limits mast and you want to ride Armstrong wings he'll make like a custom fuselage for you, he's a machinist and he's based out of the gorge.
Daniel Paronetto (11:59)
Mmm.
Greg (12:16)
Anyway, he had a BRM wing. He was like one of the first guys in the gorge to get like a pre-order or whatever. I knew him and I was traveling down there. So I got to try one really early, which was awesome. then as soon as I tried it, I was like, yeah, get me one. Because it was quite easy for me because of the kiting background and because of the winging background. There's no real learning curve.
And that was kind of the thing in my mind. Can you go up wind? And trying it, it was like, yeah, you definitely can go up wind. So that was like a sale for me. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (12:44)
Mm.
Tell us a little bit about that first session. think, β a lot of people coming into the sport have really high expectations and I think it, it's so variable. the, the result of that first session is so variable depending on people's backgrounds. And I believe you having. Kiting background, winging background. That's the perfect background to really understand everything that you need to, and be very comfortable with lines and all that stuff. So tell us a little bit about that first session.
kind of gear were you on and what kind of wind were you experiencing and how did it all go?
Greg (13:20)
Yeah, I mean it actually was pretty bad conditions for parawing because it was in the gorge and then occasionally you get the wind switch direction so the current and the wind are in the same direction and it was it was one of those days. β But I was still like making like a bit of headway upwind but like even with a wing people you can make upwind but you're struggling so that gave me confidence. β What was I on? I would have been on my 60 liter flux which is like a you know
Daniel Paronetto (13:30)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (13:49)
It's it's kind of like a mid like a moderate mid length. β But of course the volume is low. It's got a wide tail for stability and kind of like that to make it rise out of the water more is like to enable it to be used at a really low volume relative to people's weight. But it's definitely not a parawing board. But anyway I could make it work just because I think I think again like well like we said kiting and winging but I will I would always consider it.
Parawinging is like kiting, winging, and either prone in my case or downwind sup. even though I've never downwind sup, because I did a lot of prone and I really like linking as many waves as can, my pumping skills and like wave reading skills were pretty good. And I guess like winging, I spent a lot of time just flagging out and trying to ride until I fall rather than using the wing as a safety. So I've done a lot of training.
Daniel Paronetto (14:24)
Mmm.
Greg (14:46)
for the para wing not realizing that's really what I was training for, especially at the early stages. So yeah, it was very easy to adapt. Like I just kind of pumped up on foil and it was going. But I don't think, I think if you've got that experience, you might, you'll have that experience. But if you've only winged and you're not focused on flagging out for two, three, four minutes at a time, then you could be in for some real challenges for sure.
Daniel Paronetto (15:14)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think also the, flying the pair of wing because it comes very naturally to someone who flies a kite. It's literally popping it up and seeing how it reacts. And then you're like, you're trying to turn it. You're like, okay, I need a little pressure on the rear lines. Cool. And then, and then that's it. Like I've seen people that kite, you know, grab the power wing for the first time and I spend 10 seconds with them on land. They're like, okay, cool. And you can leave them alone and they'll keep the thing flying.
Greg (15:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (15:44)
And I feel like wingers, take a little bit longer to understand how it reacts. Um, you know, when you're kiting to the level that I believe you were kiting as well, you're not looking at the kite. You feel every reaction on the bar and it's fine. You don't look at the kite. And it's the same thing with the parawing. As soon as you're, got it, like you're just focusing on the board. So it's almost like 50 % of parrowinging, you know, is done. You know how to fly it and you're just focusing on how to get up, which is such an advantage. It's such an advantage.
Greg (15:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Totally, and I would say like with kiting, know, most of the kiters I've talked to at various levels, it's like 90 % of your skill at kiting is flying the kite and 10 % is your board skills. Even if you're into something like wake style, like you have to be, well, maybe not wake style, but β it's so much kiting and maybe parawing is like 50%. It's more, of course, the foil is more technical than say a twin tip, but.
It's still so much kite. So if you can just totally put that on autopilot and like you said, yeah, flying the thing for 10, 20 seconds, it's like, okay, yeah, I get this. My brain is connected and it just goes away. β Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (16:52)
Yeah. We, β I've been trying to get people to do more
land drills here and like, I do that just before a session, but I do it just to see how the wind, how, know, how strong the wind is. just pop up a pair of wing up just to have a feel for it. And I feel people don't do that enough. Sometimes I see people go out and they haven't even popped their pair of wing up and it's all like tangled. I'm like, like.
Greg (17:17)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (17:18)
Just avoid,
you know, all that grief in the water, just pop it up, set it up properly and get out. β so let's talk a little bit about that initial, initial contact with the para wing. Do you have anything that, you know, beginners can learn from maybe some stuff that you were doing wrong that you picked up along the way or something that, β you know, might just maximize their time on the water.
Greg (17:43)
Well, I think the main thing I would say for beginners is like loading all that experience that I had onto it was the key, I think, to my easy success. So I would say for people that are getting into it, if you don't have that, trying to build that out is going to be the key to your success. if you try to, it's possible to build that out on a para wing, I think.
but it's gonna be awful. Like I think if you took somebody that's never done any foil discipline and it's like, just wanna learn to foil and you go out on the parawing, sure, like an athletic person could maybe do that, but I just think it's totally the wrong way to do it. So what advice I've given to wingers and who are really interested in the parawing, my first question is like, well, how long can you flag out for? I feel like, oh, usually I could kind of ride for 10, 20 seconds. It's like.
Daniel Paronetto (18:18)
Mm.
Hmm.
Greg (18:31)
there's no real purpose to you getting a para wing because if you're only riding for 10, 20 seconds, as soon as you look down and start packing your wing, you're going to fall. And even if you do get it packed or if you just grab it and it's in my mind, just grabbing it and not packing it down, you're, you're only halfway like it's kind of annoying and it flaps around if it's strong wind. think packing it down is really key in my opinion. So if you just focus on your winging skills and flag out longer and you get to the point where you can flag out two to three minutes, I think that's a way faster route.
to becoming a better para winger than just throwing yourself into para winging. β Similar to like, you know, pump foiling, like you can just pump foil with your wing flagged out and just just try to get better at that and wave riding. So I guess like I wouldn't say anybody has to get a kite and kite foil. That would be like the long route. But really, I think just like the wave riding. β And then I think like you said, like if you can.
Daniel Paronetto (19:21)
Hmm.
Greg (19:28)
whatever board sport you can do would be great. Like I have a surfskate, which is, think, a really fun tool and means, which actually on my side, I tried a few tacks β with the pair of wing and they ended so, so terribly, you know, just like getting the...
Daniel Paronetto (19:44)
It's fast, isn't it? It's the,
it's re the, that movement becomes so fast when you compare it to kite foiling, kite foiling, you kind of like start going up wind, you know, you put the kite up, you have time, you come off the turn and then maybe you loop the kite or not, but like it, it's a three to four second thing with the parrying. It's like a one second turn. It's so whippy.
Greg (20:03)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, winging and kite foiling, the tacks feel similar, whereas with para-winging, it's a unique feel. But my point was I grabbed a surfskate, we've got this road that goes parallel, or sorry, perpendicular to the wind direction. And just on like a 15 knot day with the para-wing, I just did tack after tack after tack after tack.
And then my next session after I've never made a tack in the water, I think I got like five tacks in a row. It's just, just two hours of repping it out and win. would have been terrible for actually parowinging.
So I think for a beginner would be the same thing if you're trying to learn to jibe or you're just trying to learn to fly it Yeah, like you said and I think if you couldn't surf skate I've heard I heard somebody on your podcast talking about the one wheel I think it was Ken Adgate. I think that could be great too. Then you're not falling on the pavement β but even even walking like just yeah, yeah
Daniel Paronetto (20:50)
Yeah, that could be cool. Yep. I think so too, man. It could be
very simple, as simple as walking down. And once you're trying to do a turn, walk downwind, simulate that, you know, the jive movement of going, you know, downwind with the wind and see what the parawing does. β that I think, yeah, it's underestimated how land drills will like just exponentially help you grow in the sport. And once.
But I'm curious to see that still that transition. Once you started doing the tax on the, on the skateboard, what do you feel was the main thing for you to get it right on the water?
Greg (21:28)
I think it's timing, think it's 100 % timing. It's just like when you send the parawing over and when you release your hand and when you turn your body, if those are at the right time. So I don't even know if I could break it down.
and explain what the timing is, but I can feel it. So just, and I didn't do 20 on the surfskate, I probably did 300 of them. So I just know how it feels and because I know how it feels, I can do it. And I think that's kind of like what a lot of like, when I used to teach kiting.
Daniel Paronetto (21:45)
Yeah.
Nice.
Greg (22:03)
That was kind of my approach. As much as I could, I would try to isolate different things and then just get somebody to rep it out until, even if they can't explain what they're doing, they can feel it. And once you get that thing into muscle memory, you can almost shuffle that away and then work on your next thing. β
Daniel Paronetto (22:08)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (22:21)
And I, for the other things, I mean, you're a firefighter, right? β So yeah, you probably do a ton of rehearsals and my background is military and we do a ton of rehearsals too. And it's like, I think it's underrated in my YouTube videos when I try to teach things. I'm often really pushing the dry land stuff and I think most people don't listen to me. They like, don't take it seriously. β Like I had this foot switch video and...
Daniel Paronetto (22:41)
It's tough, yeah, they don't.
Greg (22:48)
It was about like the key to me is like your hip positioning. It's all about if you move your body forward when you're trying to switch, you're always going to nose dive. But so many guys like.
Daniel Paronetto (22:51)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (22:58)
were like really involved and like always asked me questions about these really technical aspects like when do I lift, when do I rise at this and it's like, well, let me see how you do it. And they like step forward and step back. And it's like, well, you're never no matter how many technical things you're, you're never, might get one or you might get 80 % of them, but you're never going to be 10 out of 10. If you're, if you're not standing properly and like with shooting in the military, like before you fire a shot, I actually, would even say
Daniel Paronetto (23:14)
Hmm.
Greg (23:27)
going from the army to the special forces, like the difference between a really high performance unit and something in the army is actually the attention to the smallest, most basic details. Like you spend so much time, like this is how you position your feet when you shoot and then you just would work up your whole body. This is how you hold the pistol. And we spent so much time on like your grip on the pistol, whereas in the army, they kind of just put it in your hands and like, you know, bad guys are that way. Like.
Daniel Paronetto (23:41)
Mm-hmm.
Yep. Man, I
absolutely eat that stuff up. love getting into the technicalities, getting into those, those details. I think when you're talking about drills and, know, in, in the army or in the fire brigade or anything, you do repetition because when the time comes to perform, there's obviously all that pressure of the emergency, but
The conditions around you are so extreme. Like you might have a fire, people shooting at you, like all of what you have to do has to be instinctive. And I think with power winging, it's the same. Like when you're out on a power wing, it's an intense thing. You know, the parawings there, like sometimes you're overpowered and it's flapping and it's 25 knots. It's overwhelming. So, and I think it limits people because when you're in that state, you're like, β I'm not even going to try one.
You know, like you just get inhibited and I think the repetition just gives you, at least for myself, I feel, β confident when I'm prepared. And what do you, how can you explain to like a winger that wants to get into parawinging? How does it feel?
to actually just be on the parawing compared to a wing. What's the physicality around it? How does it feel in terms of, know, comparing a turn on the wing, comparing a turn on the parawing? What are you going through and what are you experiencing when you're actually riding?
Greg (25:16)
I think with the parawing it's I would say it's like a lighter less secure feeling Which and it's like and also it's very gear dependent because there's a big variety in Parawings, but I think assuming that you've got a really nice parawing and a really nice wing even a really nice parawing It's a lighter feel so you're more so foiling and less so winging Whereas winging you kind of I feel like you've got that security you kind of like
Daniel Paronetto (25:29)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (25:45)
lock in and you can just blast whereas parowing you do that to extent but it's like there's still a little bit more balance involved even when you're just making a hard line upwind and then especially when you're when you're turning and like jibing I feel like it's you're more kind of like it's a light touch on the parowing and then you're flying the foil whereas winging you can kind of just like crank into it and you even if you're not using the wind you can kind of just like push and pull your wing to like stabilize yourself and
Daniel Paronetto (25:46)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (26:14)
I've
heard that I didn't have this because I was at the prone background, but I've heard a lot of wingers when they did their first ride on the, like they don't have the wing because you can, you don't realize it, but you can like push and pull the wing up to balance yourself on a wave and not having that they feel this like very uncomfortable kind of like, well, and it's more gliding. Like you just feel the really feel the glider foil versus being able to kind of hold on and balance.
Daniel Paronetto (26:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
the, feeling of being connected to the foil with, with the, like the moat, like the minimum input that you can have, I think is what I've been chasing in, in foiling in general. I think wingers, when they start getting a taste of starting to go downwind and being really reliant on the foil and what's happening around you in the water to keep going. think that feeling is really easy to get hooked on. and.
It's getting over that initial hump of getting out there in the water and getting your first flights. β So should we talk a little bit about some techniques in water start techniques? I've seen you get up on sinker boards. Obviously you've tried bigger boards as well. β What can you help our audiences with β in terms of getting up on foil on the parawing?
Greg (27:30)
Yeah, so I made a video on the stink bug start, which is like a little modification. β
But I recommend that exact thing for the parawing. basically you're straddling your board. You either have your parawing out or you deploy it and then you drop down, scoot your butt back so that your weight is further back and then put your elbow that's holding the wing on the board and then grab the rail with the other hand so that you're like, you're really kind of like hunched over the board and totally locked in. And then what I've been doing is taking the parawing and drop it just like a kite dropping.
Daniel Paronetto (27:40)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (28:07)
wingtip onto the surface of the water.
Daniel Paronetto (28:09)
Hmm.
Greg (28:10)
So
that it's like, whereas before I was, I was trying to fly it above me, which, which works if you've got a lot of kite skills and you're paying attention, but it's easy, even myself and other people that are, I think skilled, it's easy to kind of like let your hand twist and then all of a sudden you're getting pulled over. So I like that. Yeah. From the, from the kite days to like your kite can sit fairly well on its wingtip and then it's pulling you that one direction. So you can kind of get sorted out there and then it's pretty simple from there. You just pull in on it and you can kind of work your way to your feet.
Daniel Paronetto (28:22)
Yep, very sensitive.
Greg (28:40)
And then from there it's, you know, pumping the combination of pumping the board and pumping the wing. And I find there's a huge difference β getting on swell versus flat water. Like I need an extra five knots to get going if I don't have any wave. Like there's a lake here that gets good wind, but the wave, chop is super disorganized and small and it was stronger than what, like definitely any wind that I've... β
Like it didn't feel like super light wind to me, but because there just wasn't any bump, I couldn't get on foil and I was pretty surprised. Whereas yeah, even the smallest little bump I find makes a huge difference. And I think it also is like our board is specifically designed for that with the way that rocker works and the tail to be able to kind of gain speed going down a wave rather than gain speed specifically like only on a straight line. If that makes sense with the...
Daniel Paronetto (29:07)
Mm-hmm.
interesting.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (29:35)
curved,
the surface of the water is actually curved, it's slightly different dynamic than creating that curvature through displacing water.
Daniel Paronetto (29:43)
It's just that balance because when you are on the sinker board and you know, there's a lot of bumps around you, even just staying in that position with your knees on the board, depending on how much the board is sinking, β with the power wing flying about is pretty tough. But like you said, once you are balanced and you pop the wing out of the water, getting a knee, you your knee up and getting up, I think gets a little bit easier. It's just that initial balance. And then you're like, all right, here we go. You're up and.
Greg (29:53)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (30:09)
Hopefully it doesn't take much. find that when I'm powered up, I'm really going mostly downwind, especially with a small board. I'm not picking up speed going crosswind like a downwind or board. think my angle on a downwind or board might be like 30 degrees building up speed very slowly to the point where I'm getting lift. I'm getting speed on the board with the board when I'm in 30 knots, I go downwind and I pump more like a dock start.
Greg (30:17)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (30:38)
I try to get the board out of the water, β release all the pressure of the board on the water. And when I do that, I pump the wing. That's when I bring the wing towards me. That moment of being light, you know, you want to maximize that. then if you time that properly, it's a three to four pump thing and you're up.
Greg (30:56)
Yeah.
Yeah. I've been working on this thing, which is definitely not like a beginner technique, but if you're on your board.
and you kind of lean forward to pump and you start pulling in and you're leaning. And then when the foil starts to like lift and you're unweighting, I like shoot my legs forward to like bring it forward. So you get that extra foil speed and then you can push it back down. So you're almost like falling forward as you're pulling yourself like on the wing and then shooting your feet forward and then like pushing down and like falling forward and shooting it forward.
Daniel Paronetto (31:11)
β nice.
I like that.
That's awesome to hear you say that. That's,
that's such a, a, like a sup downwind paddle up technique where you, you, you throw the paddle as far forward as you can and you really lean on the paddle. that's, β what it something I struggled with a lot was I was, β you know, bending my hip and losing all that leverage. when you fall, you really have to trust the paddle. And when you catch it, you scoop in, like you said,
Greg (31:39)
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Daniel Paronetto (32:00)
Like as if you were standing on a rug and you just try to scoop that rug forward. It's so interesting that you said that because that's what a lot of the best paddlers tell you to do. Trust the paddle, the catch, and then just scoop that board forward. It helps heaps. I'm gonna try that. I really like that idea.
Greg (32:05)
Yeah.
Yeah, I find it's one of those techniques that, and I don't know if it's my skill level or the conditions, but sometimes I can't really do it. And then other times it's just like, it feels like the board, I'm just able to like drag it forward and get that. And it's also not something I've been doing a long time. Like I've only had a few sessions, but there's been a couple where I just like couldn't really bring it together and was kind of just more doing the like traditional dolphin-y pump. then, yeah, sometimes I can bring that together.
Daniel Paronetto (32:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Interesting.
I like that another one that I heard and I was speaking balls Mueller again. It was the pumping the parrying but doing circular motion so Bringing it in but when you bring it out try to like scoop Instead of scooping like this with the wing you scoop like that with the parrying β I thought that was a I never tried it but I think that might really be helpful in light winds If you're really heavy wind like strong winds, you're fine. But in light winds you want to β
Greg (32:48)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, you don't need it.
Daniel Paronetto (33:17)
make that, parawing fly as much as possible without losing the tension on the line. So that could be something interesting to try as well.
Greg (33:25)
Yeah, so I think I did that intuitively because with winging, I've done that where you push the wing forward and then go like, it's almost like a rotational scooping. So I definitely do that with the bar. You don't want it to like flop out. β I think that was like, I'm not a big believer in that kind of pumping. I think it is more like you're trying to get the wing to move through the air forward.
Daniel Paronetto (33:33)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (33:52)
as
much as you can generate lift that way rather than generate kind of a perpendicular lift through like opposite the direction of movement or yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (34:04)
I love those technical bits because when we can discuss that what's better or what's what's worse for so many β for so long and then we get in the water and it all goes out the window. You're like, God, you can't do it. β
Greg (34:12)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like
you hear me just you hear me like elegantly describing this technique then you see me on the waters like I'm having a seizure it's like okay like this guy does not know what he's talking about like. Yes, that's the hard thing as you film yourself too it's like I never filmed myself doing stuff but until until Omen and then yeah like it I watch videos I'm like.
Daniel Paronetto (34:25)
It's like, sounds good. Do as I say, not as I do.
sucks.
Greg (34:38)
That's what that looked like. Like, my God. My brain. It looked so much better. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (34:40)
I know it's terrible. It's very cringy,
but it, like if it helps people, think it's so cool, man, to have β some of that stuff documented as well. β Just for longevity. love that. And people, yeah.
Greg (34:53)
Well, it helps me. Like,
I learn a lot. When I do a video tutorial on any topic, like, I always learn something just because I'm just like... I don't have too many negative commenters, but I'm just like... I'm almost like going to war against some, like, hate-filled guy on the internet, so I'm, really trying to, like, buttress up what I'm saying, and... Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (34:57)
Mmm.
Yeah, bulletproof.
It is like that. mean, YouTube is a vortex of everything. but to keep, to keep the, β those comments coming, let's talk about another thing that's super hard to do on the parawing, which, which are the pack downs very unique to the sport. β something that all of us had to learn how to do from scratch, without much reference out there. β what is your pack down technique today when you're going to go for a full stow, β getting rid of the power wing.
what's working for you.
Greg (35:47)
Well, when I had the Flow, it was really easy. Those lines are, they're almost like the Q-Power line, they're stiffer. And I found I just grabbed the thing, like all my lines, I never did like just the front lines, I just grabbed, just depowered it, like stalled it, all the lines, packed it in, grabbed the lines, packed them in, bar in, and it was like easy. β With the...
Daniel Paronetto (35:52)
Yeah. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (36:10)
Ozone, which I love how much it cranks up wind. has, yeah, I love everything about that wing, but except for the lines, I find them, you just like, the first few times I almost went back to the flow despite the characteristics of the ozone, just because I put the pair of wing in, grabbed the lines, put them in, and they come out and out and out and out. And I'm like on the wave, like, what is going on? And eventually I just stuff the bar and I've got all these lines and then you fall and it like, it's all over you. It's like, fuck. β
Daniel Paronetto (36:17)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah, it goes
all over the place quickly.
Greg (36:39)
So now my technique has been like I grab all of them and then I do the armpit. I don't remember who I learned that from, but then I actually go down the lines until I feel the bridles and then I like come underneath and grab like trade hands. So I stuff that and then there's like, there's nothing left β really to have to stuff in. And I've never had a false start. Like it comes.
Daniel Paronetto (36:45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nice, nice.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (37:09)
It comes out really, really well. β But I actually had an idea on this and I think so I had this like tripod bag and I haven't, I only tried it once and it filled with water. So I need to cut a hole in the bottom. This is a recent thing, but I almost think that to separate the bar from the parawing is going to be an idea. like, β
Daniel Paronetto (37:20)
Okay, here we go.
Greg (37:34)
If you as soon as you you know, you you charge like down you grab the lines with one hand If instead of going armpit and having to deal with that if you can just isolate the bar in a bag Like this is not the perfect bag but something that kind of like stays open but is going to hold it Then you've got both hands available to pack your pair wing Yeah, and then it's gonna it's always gonna because the only way you can tangle a pair wing is if the pair wing inverts through the lines, which is hard to do or if the bar passes
Daniel Paronetto (37:45)
Mm-hmm.
Nice. Like a little holster thing.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (38:04)
passes through. So if you can isolate your bar, you're always going to get redeploys clean. So I don't know, I haven't been doing that.
Daniel Paronetto (38:09)
Yeah. Interesting. like that. I like that because you also
isolate the, that annoyance of the twist. Sometimes it's just the twist of the lines when you're packing down, you you pack it down and then you're going to put it in the bag, but somehow it twists itself before it gets there. So when you redeploy, there's no tangles, but there is a twist on the lines that you have to like, maybe loop the power wing to get rid of and keep going. Sometimes you get away with it. Sometimes you don't. β
Greg (38:20)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (38:38)
Have you, have you seen those little belt clips β that people have been 3d printing? So it's basically, there's a guy on the power wing group on Facebook, Michael shepherd. He's been printing these little hooks that you put in the belt. So it has a little opening. You slide it through the belt, just like a harness hook. And what it does is exactly what you said. So when you D power, instead of putting it on your armpit, you just click it to that belt.
Greg (38:59)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (39:07)
And then you have two hands to put it away, stash it away. You could even leave the bar there, β which is kind of like this little holster clip, or you can remove the bar from that, put it in the belt and flip it, flip it over. I'll send you a link, β when we're done or put post a link on, on the YouTube, comments, β description section so you can check it out and.
Greg (39:07)
Yep.
Yeah,
I like that. And it would be cleaner than like riding around with a bag.
Daniel Paronetto (39:34)
Yeah. But even what you said, of having a bag, but if you have the, you know, the belt that they come in, but they have maybe two sections where you can put the, you know, the bar in one section and then the bit in front of it is where you stash the power wing just to separate them a little bit. can see how that can help when you're redeploying, you go for the, you know, the area with the bar, bring it out and then you bring out the pair wing. That could be something that helps.
Greg (39:52)
Yeah.
Yeah,
and kind of like go back to army things. have this thing, like the inspiration for this was a drop pouch. So back in like, I guess the the military really changed when it went into Afghanistan, right? And guys were guys were training to like you're shooting and you take your magazine out and you put it back in the proper pouch, which of course, like, are you really going to do that in combat? Well, actually, yes, you do if that's what you're trained to do. But you might get shot in the process of doing that because you're but
Daniel Paronetto (40:14)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (40:30)
Anyway, then the way they start training is when you're shooting, you just rip your mag out and chuck it. But then the compromise is you have this pouch. It's kind of like a climber's chalk bag that kind of like stays open. So when you're dumping mags, you just drop them into that pouch. So that's kind of what I was thinking. And the clip in my mind, I think it's a, love things that are clean like that. And I love how clean that idea is.
Daniel Paronetto (40:44)
Hmm.
Greg (40:54)
criticism of it, would take longer to like find the place and index and clip in versus just dropping it and then you still have something like it's still exposed. So there could be like a line that loops around somewhere. Whereas if you can stick it in a pouch, β then it's there's nothing that can loop up or tangle. So and I think there's going to be like different levels of minimalism, on your skill and your comfort with these things. So β yeah, they'll probably be all types of harness setups that come up.
Daniel Paronetto (40:58)
Mm-hmm.
Get rid of it.
Yeah, it's so interesting. β I also love how the, the pocket rocket flies. β just, just rips up when, β it's such a good parrying. of the easiest ones for you to learn the tax when you're going up wind with it, it really doesn't have that, β pull. It doesn't lift and it doesn't want to, like, kind of disappears, which is good on attack. but those lines were really something that just, β threw me off completely and.
Greg (41:32)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (41:51)
I, when I was redeploying, was like, why is this tangling so much? And it just feels like, β like a shoe Lacey kind of very, you know, β it's just very prone to tangling, β which is unfortunate, but I, I'm sure this, this is going to be rectified very quickly. And I think the other thing that, β those lines are not really great for is because they're so long. I got, β I just recently been writing the caja and the canaha.
Greg (42:19)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (42:20)
And their
lines are so short. And I really feel that for redeploying, β efficiency and success, the short lines are just absolutely game changer. Like it gives you so much in terms of the fuel and all that, but for stowing redeploying, it's literally like an arm length and you're on the leading edge on the caja. And I think I was out for an hour and a half with zero tangles, zero.
I had one little line on the bar that I had to take out for the whole session. And I think that's due to those really, really short lines.
Greg (42:58)
Yeah, the only thing I would, I like having longer, I almost want as long of a lines as I can handle because I want the extra upwind and I would, I don't mind having to do my technique where I like double back and grab and like now that that's been kind of sorted, I'd rather have an extra, maybe if it's three or four degrees upwind, I'll take that over, over like that ease of use. I, I,
Daniel Paronetto (43:04)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Greg (43:25)
So, but then again, I also haven't tried those new, those new beer I'm wings and I know guys are raving about them. And I think it's cool that he's got the different, the different options for different styles. β That came very quick. β
Daniel Paronetto (43:36)
Yeah, that came quick.
Yeah.
But I like what you're saying because the, your setup will be so unique to your spot. Like you said, you do want to maximize the upwind angles because that's the type of riding you do. β tell us a little bit about your spot. What's a Vancouver Island like compared to Hood river or other spots in the world that, β kind of make it unique and good for pair winging. I I'm assuming.
Greg (43:47)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think it is good for para-winging. β We've got lots of spots, I'll say, and then we've got really strong currents.
what's good can change on a given day. β You can have strong wind and sometimes not great waves or and other times it's not that strong but you get these really nice waves similar to what can happen at Hood River. β Our main spot is like you know right downtown basically and there's a point with a bay and when the current actually floods in with the same direction as the wind from from the west it creates this back eddy which kind of shoots out past the points and creates these standing waves so
Daniel Paronetto (44:15)
Yeah.
Greg (44:40)
So yeah, there's like a back eddy there, and then you can basically, there's this place called the Chinese Cemetery that you can downwind basically to that Chinese Cemetery, and then come back up and then there's...
another spot further downwind that gets waves when the current is flowing out β called Harling Point. β So those spots are really good and you can get like you get some really big nice days there like it's a pretty rad spot. It's not consistent like Hood River but you know could get three or four days of sailing β which is nice. β
Daniel Paronetto (44:56)
Mm-hmm.
What's, β have other people taking up the parowinging in your area?
Greg (45:17)
There's a few, yeah.
I think it's not as, like when I went down to Hood River, it's definitely catching hold faster there. And I also just think because our spot doesn't work great for downwinding, logistics-wise, there's not, I mean, I think we only had one or two guys that had gotten to downwinds up properly, and even them were like not really doing it because they didn't have friends that were shuttling all the time. So it was pretty limited. β
Daniel Paronetto (45:24)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So tough.
Greg (45:45)
β So there's not that kind of like crew of people that are trained and ready to go. β So yeah, there's two guys that ride to me with me, Sam and Finn, and they're both like on it right away. And then a guy, Chris Curran, who's really good, he was on it. β
but I don't think I've seen anybody else. I think we will, β but I think a lot of people with para-winging too are kind of like waiting for V2, waiting for what people say is good for boards and all that, all that kind of stuff. But definitely at Hood River, it's catching on.
Daniel Paronetto (46:09)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I think it's fine. know, that, that, that'll come. There's this initial influx of people who I think kind of like really got into it that, you know, want to take their riding to, to where the paraling, know, allows you to go and all that stuff. But the second wave now, I believe will be the wingers. All those wingers that are kind of, yes, I'm waiting for better gear.
I think the V2s from, from Greg are absolutely such a step forward. Like the, top end was really where I saw the biggest improvement. So not much on the bottom end. The bottom end feels like very similar to all the other, the pair wings out there, but it feels like the top end of an ozone, you know, like you're smashing up wind and it's just the drive that the, the power wing has is enormous. And we don't talk too much about drive. And what I mean by it is just like,
Greg (46:49)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (47:09)
How much wind does it like eat up, you know, like going up wind and it makes such a difference instead of having that thing that it's just kind of just pulling you down wind and like grunty kind of vibe. So I, that's where I felt the improvement was. And if you are a winger, I saw one of your videos that you said that a power wing replaced your favorite wing. So explain that to us a little bit because replacing your favorite wing with a power wing is quite a statement these days.
Greg (47:12)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, like I would say my favorite wing was a four meter and I felt like I could almost only have a four meter like with my 66 liter board I can get it up in such light wind and I've had it like in really strong days and just on those you know the storm days where I'm on the two five or the three are one thing but those just like solid filled in days the four is just I had most my best sessions on that four meter wing
And I really don't see myself ever using a four meter wing again, because I'll be para-winging. But that being said, I'm not at all interested in a four meter para-wing. I'm on the, because my four meter sessions were on like a prone board with with winging. Whereas now my three six pocket rocket and my 66 liter, that's kind of like my.
like light wind para winging setup which is maybe let's say you know 16 knots but if it's 14 knots for me where our conditions are I just so much rather have the five meter wing and be like backwinding and playing around with little sections and it's just I think that part of winging is still really fun and engaging and I actually almost love it more now because of the just because of how hard try hard para winging can be β so I really appreciate just like the ease of use β I think we were talking before
Daniel Paronetto (48:28)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (48:56)
the podcast, it's like, just because you learned to backgrunt your ski doesn't mean like you're gonna skin up a groomed run, like you're still gonna use the chairlift and do some groomer days and you'll probably appreciate just, you know, eating groomers for an afternoon after like doing like an epic hike to get, you know, head high powder or some obscure place.
Daniel Paronetto (49:06)
Mm-hmm.
you're going with this because that's, that's possibly how it's going to grow. Isn't it? Like wingers having, β a three wing quiver that depending on the conditions, might be their smallest wing or, you know, the, wing they use the most. There is one of them that can be replaced for a parowing on the days that those conditions are great for parowinging. And that might be the thing you do that day.
Greg (49:43)
Yeah, on my on my video there, I had said that I'm replacing my like three and four wing with pair of wings and then like with a I think a two five and a three five and then
with my like, I'm gonna keep my two five inflatable wing for like the crazy storms. And that was just my experience being overpowered on a para wing and then keep my five for the light wind days. I might actually reverse on the small wing. think I'm gonna get the 1.9 pocket rocket. I just after being in Hood River, yeah, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (50:02)
Mm-hmm.
my god, that would be incredible.
Greg (50:18)
I was in some really strong nasty wind in Hood River with the 2-4 and I was definitely overpowered but the swell was just massive and I was like, okay, this is fine. I'm doing fine with these gusts and if I had the 1-9 I'd be comfortable. We get some crazy winter storms so I can't really say until I get those kind of like, you know.
Daniel Paronetto (50:23)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (50:43)
30 knot gusting 45 knot days whether that 1.9 is gonna be good or just a hazard but I think I think I'm gonna renege on that and say like yeah I'm just five meter inflatable and then parawinks β yeah we'll see
Daniel Paronetto (50:49)
Mm-hmm.
Interesting, interesting. I, we had,
my God, we had like three days of 30 to 40 knot wind, β here in Melbourne and it was just crazy. I'm the smallest pair wing I have is a two nine, the Caja. man. I had sessions where I was just getting yanked out of the water, flying down wind, like super fast, trying to get rid of it. β super sketchy. I think for me those days.
A 1.8, 1.9, a sub two pair wing would be amazing. And I, I might not use it a lot, but when you use it, it's worth every penny because that session is something you don't experience all the time. And, um, I still have a recollection of being in middle of the Bay and the whole Bay looked like snow because of all the Y caps and all the just spray that was everywhere. It was just such a unique feeling.
Greg (51:32)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. β
Daniel Paronetto (51:54)
β and those are the things that I think, you know, you can get into. And I had two other guys on wings, β and they were just flying down wind as well. That's a bit sketchy session that one.
Greg (52:02)
Yeah.
Well, that's one thing I'll say is like the difference between the three pocket rocket and the two four as far as like the ability to handle like that blasting wind was profound. Like I was really surprised how much easier that was. So now I've just kind of have pretty high expectations of that 1.9 in terms of handling those crazy storm days.
Daniel Paronetto (52:24)
Yeah. you mentioned a little while back that you were really kind of keen to get into sup down-winding and your conditions, really didn't like just the shuttling didn't work. It was really hard for you. β did you ever get into it?
Greg (52:39)
Yeah, I wasn't even keen to get into
it as much as I was just jealous of people that could.
Daniel Paronetto (52:43)
Yeah, he's like, all these guys
are surfing downwind. Like I want to do that.
Greg (52:47)
Yeah, like when I'd be in Hood River, I'd see these guys just like, with just like totally open and gliding. And for me, like I had that sensation through the drop anchor, but now I've got this wing, I've got to go chase down. And β one thing I liken it to is like, have you ever rock climbed, any climbing?
Daniel Paronetto (53:05)
Yeah,
Greg (53:06)
So there's this feeling like doesn't matter how high you are up, like let's say you're a hundred feet up and you're in a like in a book frame, like and you're climbing like that. You kind of feel closed in and safe. Whereas when you're on the opposite, you're on a corner and you just get this like sense of exposure. I found I find downwind is like that, but in a in like a good way rather than like a β like clench way. It's just like like letting go of the wing, like not having it and just being in that openness and having all these
Daniel Paronetto (53:21)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Greg (53:36)
options it's just something changes in your brain having just having that completely open up for you so I knew that feeling from β from drop anchoring and doing that but it's just such a pain in the ass to do it that most of my sessions I wasn't drop anchoring β so I would see these guys just gliding by with their downwind subs and be like like I just like yeah but it's I knew I knew if I went and got the board and did all that stuff that I would just be like I would
Daniel Paronetto (53:39)
Yeah.
They're having a good time.
Greg (54:05)
To do it, I would have to convince other people and shuttle. my problem with foiling is that I don't foil enough. Like I'd want to foil more and that would just kill my foiling time. So β that's one of the reasons when I saw the pair of wing. And now, like when I was in Hood River, I'm on my 66 liter board with nothing in my hands. And I look at a downwind sub guy carrying this paddle, eight foot long board, just like, I have no sense of like, I want to do that at all.
Daniel Paronetto (54:07)
Mmm.
God.
for you, the pair wing doesn't replace all your wings, not yet. β
Greg (54:37)
I think it ever will. I mean, maybe I'll eat
my words on that, but I don't think I'm gonna be parowinging. there's just so many, like below here, the local conditions, I think it would be different if I lived in Maui or Oswer. I think sometimes you've got 13, 14 knots, but there's these like beauty swells that are cruising by, right?
then I could see why you'd want to have a downwind sub and a five meter parawing. Whereas for here, I mean, I guess I could drive two hours to where we're more exposed to the open ocean, but realistically I'm not doing that. β
Daniel Paronetto (55:00)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (55:12)
So yeah, just don't see it. And I don't like, when I had that, I had a 4.2 D-wing. That wing, it's also the heavier fabric. in the conditions that I needed it to work in, it didn't fly. So.
Daniel Paronetto (55:21)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (55:29)
Even though I got that at the same time, the 4.2 D-Wing and the 3 Ozone, was like I had the same low end with the 3-meter Ozone just because it would fly so much better, whereas the D-Wing was coming out of the sky. And I think if I was 220 pounds, that'd be a totally different story, because I would need that D-Wing when it was, let's say, 16, 17 knots. But because I'm only 185 or like 85 kilos,
Daniel Paronetto (55:37)
Mm.
Greg (55:55)
Yeah, I just, I didn't need it. think, whereas I think the Ozone 3-6 is like a really good size for me that it's still, and it's the lighter cloth, so it flies better in that kind of like lighter wind, but yeah, I just don't see going a bigger, bigger for myself. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (56:11)
Yeah, I don't do,
I have a five five, but I don't use it. And it's something that I thought I would be kind of interested to use it. Maybe even like, I thought about even like freestyling with it might be interesting and everything, but it's just so big, man. It's such a clunky thing to get up. And I think I kept out at the four meter as well around that range. I think is good. I'm 85 kilos with all the gear as well. So I think that that makes sense for me as well. And.
Greg (56:17)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (56:40)
Now that we're going to have a lot more top end on these V2s, you will be using that for, β and you'll be able to hold it up to maybe 25 knots, which is a huge improvement. think they capped out around 2022 for me. Like that ability to go upwind. So that might improve and then I, but the three six, β I know flow has a three seven now. I don't have that one. β but that three five, three seven range three eight, I think is going to be my biggest one as well. I'm not going to go bigger than that.
Greg (56:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
But you still downwind paddle too. So is that going to be your light wind thing?
Daniel Paronetto (57:15)
Ah, mate, I don't, look, I, nine out of 10 times I'm on the para wing. And I can't remember the last paddle session I had.
Greg (57:24)
So what would you do if it's 13 or 14 knots or just go mountain biking or something? Kite whaling. Yeah, kite whaling is fun.
Daniel Paronetto (57:28)
I'll go kite foiling. Yeah. Kite
foiling is still so much fun and something that, um, like I think when I get back to it, I can do all the stuff that I was doing the last day I started. I don't lose it. Like I, I, it's so ingrained in me that I go back and I do all my tricks, have a lot of fun. And I start, you know, exploring some things or something that comes in power wing. I'm like, let's try this in kite foiling or anything like that. So I think.
Greg (57:55)
Yeah, I'm still having
fun like that with the 5 meter inflatable wing. Like there's so much stuff I'm still learning that I don't really feel like it's a compromise and it's something I'm trying to get rid of. feel like it's, and especially now that I'm winging less, that progression is gonna be slower. So yeah, I'm pretty happy with that quiver. β I think, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (58:00)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Have you noticed anything
that the parawing gave you in the winging side? Like something that crossed over from parawing to winging that you're like, I'm better at winging now because I'm doing this on the parawing.
Greg (58:30)
Well, I don't know technique wise, but one thing that's that I've changed is I listened to your podcast with Ken Adgate and he mentioned about having the harness hook higher on his chest and as soon as he said that it's like, yeah, of course you can, you just adjust the angle of the wing instead of flying like this to just fly so it's more efficient. I haven't got the chest harness yet, but I've started taking my harness, whether it's parawing or winging, if I'm doing a long upper run and just like scooting it up. β
Daniel Paronetto (58:39)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Greg (58:59)
Up higher so that I've got that toe point hook like higher up and I yeah, it's it's nice I especially and that's one thing I love about the ozone harness I know everybody on your podcast that I've heard is all geeked out on the ozone harness It's like it's so good. But one thing I haven't heard mentioned is the panel on the back is so slippery β The the other one I used it was like it sticks to you So you can't like it catches on your wetsuit. Whereas this one it just slides everywhere which traditionally
Daniel Paronetto (59:02)
I like that.
Mm-hmm.
Catch you, yeah.
Which one were you using before?
Was it just the BRM one? The V1, because I think they have a V2 now as well that I haven't used or seen. But it's that, it's like a shiny fabric on the ozone. You've got it there. Yeah.
Greg (59:30)
The BRM one. Yep.
Yeah, I've got it here actually. it's that.
And it just slides on neoprene so well. And it's not something like if I was designing a harness and I hadn't seen one, I would probably be like, yeah, want it sticky to stay in place. But now that I'm, especially now that I'm hiking it up.
Daniel Paronetto (59:45)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Greg (59:57)
It's so nice to just be able to like, can, you can flip it forward and back so fast and then it just slides right up to the like kite for the kiting. You hate that when it happens, when your harness rides up, you're constantly trying to like keep your harness in the right spot. Whereas yeah, it's the opposite now because of that, β what Ken said about keeping the point of toe higher. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:07)
Yeah, it's annoying.
β Are you,
β are you like now that we're talking about gear and stuff, do you use, any wing leash or any leash at all?
Greg (1:00:27)
don't use a wing leash and then also learn from your podcast to stop using a board leash. When β Greg said that that he doesn't use a board leash anymore. I do think it's sketchy β and I know that I'm gonna get in trouble at one point because of this. Hey yeah but it's been awesome. I sure loved it in the meantime.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:42)
One day it'll happen.
Yeah.
Greg (1:00:47)
The only time I got in trouble. So I've changed my harness setup a little bit, which we can talk about in a bit, but I used, had a 3D printed hook that I was using. And this is a Jim Strangfellow idea, a guy that I'd mentioned to you earlier. Rather than having the harness line on the bar, which I find is annoying, super annoying to have an extra thing on the bar. He just has a hook and he hooks on to the bar.
from your harness. So anyway, I had 3D printed this hook and I was riding and I had the no board leash and this was maybe, I probably had like five sessions with no board leash. So I was really comfortable with it at this point. And then the hook snapped, like my 3D print broke. So my pair of wing just went, poof.
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:13)
Interesting.
you lost both.
β shit.
Greg (1:01:32)
And then my
board shot out and I was just like, oh, and this was like Hood River and it was, you know, 35 knots. And I was just like, ah, like, yeah. So I got the board, which wasn't actually that hard. And then as soon as you're on your board, it was easy to get to the parawing. But I have had it once too. This was with the flow where my parawing, I don't know, I remember what happened, but it like flew away and then it landed like this.
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:38)
β my...
Mm. I had that.
Mm.
Greg (1:01:58)
and
it went so fast and like my 66 liter board paddles quite fast. But I was going as hard as I possibly could and it was only, you know.
20 meters away from me, but it was going up basically right at so it took me maybe 10 minutes to close that distance and the whole time I'm thinking man if I Get gassed and back off a little bit. It's gonna start gaining so I got it I've never had that happen with the ozone and I think it's maybe I'm just lucky or maybe it's because it's that super I think it's like a coated nylon so it's floppy or fabric so I'm wondering if it would just like not be as rigid with that like heavier polyester
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:15)
Yeah.
Mm.
β Dylan from the X-Foils, he spoke about losing a parawing. That's how he lost his. He lost his parawing on the water like that. β I think he was on the North.
Greg (1:02:41)
That same way. What one was he on? The flow as well?
Okay.
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:48)
But after that podcast, I was doing, just like a session with the ozone and that happened to me with the ozone. So some, yeah, it's like, it was something happened as well, β that I just lost it just pinged out of my hand, but it flew. Like it was a proper like six, know, like, my God. β and then I'm like, great, it'll be easy to catch. like you, I'm like, β I'm not getting to it. And then I noticed the leading edge sitting outside the water.
Greg (1:02:58)
Damn, I was hoping it went.
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:18)
No, bar upwind perfect, just like catching a little edge, but what happened eventually. No, mine was just, yeah, it was, it was dragging. So it was keeping it kind of there.
Greg (1:03:20)
Mm-hmm.
Was your bar sitting on the parowing too? Yeah. It was dragging. Okay,
well mind that, it was the parowing was like this and the bar was sitting on the canopy perfectly. So it wasn't even causing drag. was just like, and it wasn't strong wind. Like it was maybe 20 knots. yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:41)
It's it, it, it, it flies down wind. I was, and I was on the 85
liter board, like you paddling my ass off and I only got to it and it took me 10, 15 minutes when it started to collect a little bit of water and slow down. And then I saw that was like, maybe half the leading edge was out. was, I was making some ground, but I was like, man, you can't lose a pair of wing. it falls in that right position, it could happen.
Greg (1:04:08)
Well, you know, that's a point for the longer lines. I think maybe if you have the longer lines it makes it little more... let's start filling our bars with lead shot.
I think the key, I've been thinking about this a lot since ditching the board leash. I think what Ken is doing is kind of the ideal is that you've got your stash pouch, your fanny pack, and then you've got your chest rig with a backup pair of wing.
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:33)
Mm.
Greg (1:04:33)
Because if I was riding my 2.4 and I had my 3 as a backup and I had that situation where I just like blow up, I can grab that 3 and I can sail back to my board. As soon as I get back to my board, it doesn't matter how far that other pair of wings is, I'm gonna chase it down. But I think that's kind of like the leash is the second pair of wing, which I'm not carrying at the moment, but I need to start.
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:49)
That's a good point.
Yeah.
Yeah. β I don't go out all the time with a second pair wing. do like those sessions where you're just riding the gear. don't write a harness or anything. It's just a pair wing and board. love that. I love that feeling. β but for hood river, I'm building these backpacks because I'm imagining that we're going to be in the water for three to four hours without coming to land. Like we're going to be doing upwinds and downwinds and all that stuff. So I'm packing in a little bag that has some water, some stuff.
food and whatever, but you can put two pair of wings in your back or one, depending on the pair of wings that you're taking out. And you still have your pouch to, you know, put it in your belt and swing it around and ride, um, with nothing in your hands. Um, and then having something like Ken, I haven't tested it yet, but I'm going to put my Dakine leash, a hook on top of that. And the last thing that he said that I'm like, can you're a genius, a little pouch.
Greg (1:05:33)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:59)
for some music and I never go out with music. I'm like, you know, and I've seen people do it before. And I did a session with music the other day and it was incredible. I felt like, β man, it was so cool because you just download all the tracks to your phone. you're not streaming anything. And then I have a little powering playlist. It was awesome. Absolutely awesome. so that's the, that's the, that's the kit for, for hood river.
Greg (1:06:01)
Mm-hmm.
I haven't tried it either. I should, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. I should try that. That is cool.
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:28)
That's what I'm trying to build. I'm building some of the boys these bags as well because they're like, can you do it for me?
Greg (1:06:34)
I think you might be, for Hood River, think you might be overrating how hard it is to get to shore. Like, I mean, if you're doing a big downwinder, that's one thing, but, which is, and it is cool, because the gorge changes and the spots change as you go downwind, so I think it would be nice to have that, but I would.
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:41)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:06:51)
gamble that most of your riding is going to be like you're going to post up at Rufus or the Hatchery and you're just going to blast upwind and then you're going to come downwind and if you want to drink a water you just go in and get it and go back out and I think your more minimalist approach is going to be nice there.
Daniel Paronetto (1:07:03)
Yeah, you'll need a break.
The one thing that we will be doing is we're to be testing a lot of stuff there. So I want to have a few parawings on me to just switch in the water quickly and try to get that immediate back to back feeling, which is always hard, you know, cause conditions are always so variable. β yeah, I, I might be over, β overestimating a lot of stuff here and just like packing a lot of gear I will never use, but we'll see.
Greg (1:07:13)
Mm-hmm.
Totally.
Yeah, I've also, so that, I wanted to talk about this thing that I'm doing now with the harness. Actually, how can I adjust the camera here? So as I know you don't use a hook, and I think you should, especially if you're doing like the upwind downwind. So all I've got now is, this is just larks headed on, which the ones you buy are,
they have like a proper clip just like the hooks do. But I think this is better because I can lay flat and it doesn't slide around. I don't want it to slide around. And then I'm using a carabiner which I just β ground the little nub off. So.
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:10)
Mm-hmm.
β yep, yep.
Greg (1:08:24)
So basically I can just like clip this on and then I've got these little like ridges. So if it's super powered up, I'm just there. And then I'm just on my back hand like you would with kiting where, know, how you're often just kiting with your back hand or if it's like, you know, more like in the proper range, then you're, you're maybe more back here with your hand over top of it. But this is like, you go up wind way better and
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:34)
Mmm... Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Greg (1:08:50)
or not way better, but it's just so much more comfortable to lean against it.
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:54)
And you have the
bar further up as well when you're using it. Like you said, maybe not chest high, but just like.
Greg (1:09:00)
Yeah,
I kind of like I have it. I guess I set the the size of it so that hits and sits nicely on my hips and then I just go as far up as it'll go, which is about here. So it kind of just sits right under my tits and yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:06)
Yeah. Yeah, gotcha.
Nice.
Yeah. Nice.
I like that. You know, β those kind of webbing with a little Velcro that come with the pair of wing. You can even have one of those on there and have that carabiner because the carabiner is quite large. You can have a little smaller one and just connect it to the loop on the bar. So you might always have just the connection point to your harness line on the bar without any harness in that without any line in there. And then just have the little hook and have a little bit.
Greg (1:09:30)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:43)
of a smaller carabiner there.
Greg (1:09:45)
Yeah, I for the longest time I just had a hook which I think I'm gonna go back The only reason for the carabiner is not for the bar. It's so that I can clip it to myself So Yeah, and it's just cuz my heart my hook broke and I rigged this up but I think the I think that the key is gonna be a hook that has velcro on it and then a patch of velcro on the harness so you can just like β
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:56)
Gotcha, put it away on the belt.
Greg (1:10:12)
you know, stick it to your harness and then quickly grab it. Cause that was what I was finding with the hook. What I would do is I would like pull it around and stick it in the pouch, which worked well, but it's just like every time you do it, it's, you know, three or four seconds and which I could be riding away for that time. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:22)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
the the one thing you mentioned that could be cool as well. Like on the ozone, you have that little β kite knife pouch, a little pouch like that where you can just slip that little hook in. If it's a flat hook, you could just maybe put it in that one. Does it fit?
Greg (1:10:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I
tried. β It didn't, my other hook was bigger. β And it's also, it's kind of behind your back, right? β And I also am using the, I'm using the Ozone little knife now, just as a extra little safety. But yeah, I think, I mean, I gotta play with it, but in my mind,
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:58)
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's worth it. I think it's definitely worth it.
Greg (1:11:15)
And of course I haven't done it so grain of salt, having Velcro on the hook and you know, yeah, not a carabiner, just a plastic hook and just being able to like stick it there. And then you could just rip it off, stick it on. I think that's going to be key.
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:18)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I like that.
I like these little, β you know, little paradigm shifts where we're like, how can we do the harness line on the bar? And like, we're not doing it on the bar. We're doing it on the harness. I love those little pivot points where we're just rethinking how we're approaching it and taking a completely different angle to solve that problem. So I'm going to, I'm going to try some stuff from the harness, whatever it is towards the bar. I think that's a great tip to, cause I don't, I don't like having anything on the parawing when you're deep, you know, de powering, stowing, you want that thing clean.
Like having a double line thing for me is out of the question. If I have a harness line, I think I will have to have a harness line for hood. I'll have a single line. And now you just made me maybe have it on my belt, not on the bar itself. Cause I was thinking of just having one line and just have like maybe a little elastic that just keeps it within the bar and I can still ride it. And then it kind of disappears. I don't have to test those things.
Greg (1:12:01)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (1:12:25)
I don't have too much time now, man. It's like the 26th. I have to come up with these answers pretty quickly now.
Greg (1:12:31)
Yeah, the hook works so well on the bar. And then like you said, it keeps your bar totally clean. That's my only complaint with it is just like when I first had it, it was just dangling, right? And which is really annoying. So it was really just how do you get that thing away? So the carabiner was just because it broke was just a really quick solution a couple of days ago to be able to clip it to myself. But I do think the Velcro is it. I mean, I always say that when I...
Daniel Paronetto (1:12:36)
Yeah.
Mmm.
That's, that's... gold. I love that.
Greg (1:13:00)
think of something like that and then you try it and you're like, there's gonna be some problem, but yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:04)
They will find it. I like, I like where
you're going with it. I'll try it as well. We'll keep texting each other back and forth until we get somewhere, interesting. Greg, I want to talk about another video that I learned heaps from. β and it's more relating to down-winding and connecting waves and reading swell. β you, you post a video out there that I think is really interesting for people to understand how swell works when it comes to set waves.
Greg (1:13:11)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:32)
And when swell that just comes over those waves. β can you explain it a little bit to us? What bumps are we supposed to look for in the water and where within a set of a couple of bumps should we get into when we're starting to get into going down wind and, and catching those bumps.
Greg (1:13:52)
Yeah, so this is actually something I think I learned from Dave Kalama's episode on the progression project years ago. And it was that β it's a weird, it's a hard thing to say, but it's that when you're looking at waves, the set moves at half of the speed of the wave. So if you look at an individual wave, that's a small wave as it progresses, like.
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:56)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:14:18)
or rather, I guess like a set of waves, the front wave in the set is actually dying because the set is not keeping up with the wave speed. So if you get on the very back wave in the set, that wave is moving through the set as it progresses, so you get the longest ride. So...
what I'm trying to do is I'll get on that very back wave and then I'm gain, I just keep trying to gain speed and then dropping back. And if I can keep dropping back, I stay in those like good waves the longest.
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:47)
And every time I go out after watching that video, I'm like, just look for the last one on the set and keep dropping back. you.
You can almost visualize that bigger bump in front of you and the three bumps, β just ahead being, you know, the ones you don't want to get to too much. And that's obviously if you're surfing, right? Because if you're racing, you're just plowing through that stuff and trying to overtake everything, that you possibly possibly can. That's such a cool explanation. love that video. And I really encourage everyone to go and have a look because the graphs you have there make it very, very easy to understand.
Greg (1:15:05)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
thought that was gonna be our most popular video because I see so many wingers, when I, it's so many wingers at the intermediate level, which is of course most wingers, that's their main thing is they want to be able to ride forever. they want to be able to downwind. β So I thought people were gonna be super into that and I thought like I spent a lot of time kind of like distilling like everything I've learned. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:15:33)
Mm. Yeah.
Yep.
Greg (1:15:50)
and maybe it'll be one that grows, whereas something like my foot switch video got a ton. I wasn't expecting that to be, like that was just something I kind of cooked up pretty quickly and it's like, yeah, like this is how you switch feet. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:15:56)
Mmm.
It's weird like that sometimes
the stuff you're not expecting just gets a lot of β attention, look, I think. was, I'm a huge fan of that video and I watched it a few times. β and I, and I love just the, just the graphs that you got in there and the visuals are super helpful just to, to have that mental picture of it. And when you're in the water, I have those mental images with me of bigger bumps, kind of, you know, encompassing these small little swells on top and.
And yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot of pattern recognition out there, which is so cool. Like when you're starting to connect and stay on foil for, you know, a couple of Ks, it's just that pattern recognition on the water and looking at stuff and looking at those opportunities that you can jump on. yeah, I think I'm still surprised at how many people are not into it. like, well, how are you not into it? Even if it's a short upwind, downward leg, which they do on the wing.
Greg (1:16:54)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (1:16:55)
You know,
that's what they do. They go up wind flag the wing and ride their swell. I'm like, how are you not getting into downwindy, man?
Greg (1:17:01)
Well, I think it's hard. I guess I'm almost the opposite. I'm wondering why parowinging is taking off like it is. that, like, even though I, like for me, it's a dream. Like I couldn't be happier. Like I almost, it's like pinch myself that this exists and I can do it. Yeah, yeah, I'm giddy with it. but.
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:03)
Yeah, it's
Hmm.
I know, I'm giddy. Yep.
Greg (1:17:23)
Looking at a lot of people ride and how long they can flag out. It's like if you're riding for 10 seconds 20 seconds, it's just why parawing like it's your You're just it's going to be so frustrating for you to move to it. So I do think it's like that there has to be a transition. I think downwind's up like Where we are anyway, like it's just not there's not very many people and I think
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:32)
Mmm.
Greg (1:17:48)
Probably if you're in Australia or Maui, you're like, yeah, most people are downwind subbing. But I think most of the world, like Europe was a huge market. So many places in the US that are just not conducive for downwind sub. And people are winging and just the level at which they're winging at and what they're in it for. I don't I don't think para-winging is, it just doesn't have that. And people struggle with winging, right? Like.
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:52)
Mmm.
You're a Puget.
Mm.
Greg (1:18:14)
It's these things are tough. You're coordinating β multiple accesses of control on a wing, multiple access on the board. Like there's so much going on that I think people are pretty overwhelmed with the progression of that. And then to add something that makes it like significantly harder, I think is a lot for people. So I don't know. I don't know. My prediction is winging is going to be a lot bigger than parawinging will be just because of that accessibility.
Daniel Paronetto (1:18:15)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's,
think it's just that evolution of where 80 % of the foilers are in their ability and their skill level. a lot of those people who are winging and they're just going out to have a, just to mow the lawn sometimes, you know, they just want to get out in the water. They're not into tricks. They're not maybe not even tacking. They just want to get out and sail.
β I think those people could have a lot of fun on the parawing, a lot of fun. you could scream up wind. β it's something for you to fly a little more like, and have fun flying it. And that's where I think, you know, people might have, like you said yourself, one or two pair wings in their quiver.
And there are days out there, they'll look out and say, you I think today is a power winging day and take it that way. β how much it grows got so hard to say, but I think you have a cool background. β and when I think about where the sport can go, I feel that the progression has been so quick in the designs of the parawings, looking at these V2s now. Where's the sport going in terms of materials? I mean, your background with Alula is super cool for us to understand. Like where can we take.
harrowing materials or is this it? Like is ripstop the thing?
Greg (1:19:56)
I ripstop is the thing and I wish I could say more, knowing, having studied ultra high, cause there's like, you you've got different high performance fibers, right? You've got the main ones that would be used in a pair of wing are nylon, polyester or ultra high molecular weight polyethylene. So ultra high molecular weight polyethylene is what is at the core of a Lula. And if you're looking at really any other really high performance fabrics, β
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:58)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:20:22)
I mean, there's other options like, like Aramids, Kevlar and stuff like that, but they have, β they have UV sensitivities and they also, when you fold them a number of times, just like if you take a carbon fiber and it's not wetted out with resin and you fold it like this, like a dozen times, it'll just break in your hands. So these aren't just like, they're not applicable to something that has to flutter. β Whereas ultra high molecular weight, it has like an amazing folding endurance, so you'll never tire it out.
Daniel Paronetto (1:20:38)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:20:51)
problem is it's really expensive β and that cost goes up exponentially when you make the yarns β of a higher or of a lower denier, like a β thinner yarn. And then it also doesn't stick, like it's very slippery and coatings don't stick to it, whereas polyester and nylon have a higher surface energy so you can stick a coating to them. So...
Daniel Paronetto (1:20:53)
Mm.
thinner line.
Mm.
Greg (1:21:15)
It's a really, and so like when you're dealing with heavier fabrics, you can take this ultra high molecular weight polyethylene and take a film and bond that film in some process to it to basically stabilize your material. So now you don't need a super tight locked in weave. You have your film to provide the bias and just, you know, when it sews, it doesn't come apart. Whereas when we're looking at the weights of pair wings, we want something, well, like.
Daniel Paronetto (1:21:31)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:21:42)
Titan wing canopy is 55 GSM and we definitely want to be below that. And I think ideally in that 30 grams per square meter, I think the ozone is like 32, yeah.
So one, think this industry has already been pushed really hard because you could, I mean, you could look at guys that are, have a single skin paraglider that fits in like almost the same package as our pair of wings. Like there's a lot of R &D already in that from, from paragliding. And I don't see anything like fundamentally different about like the design criteria for a fabric for pair wings versus a paraglider. Like obviously like ours get wet in saltwater more, but it's not like a
Daniel Paronetto (1:21:59)
Mm.
Greg (1:22:24)
paraglider can't get wet. Like it has to be able to get wet as well. It gets hit by UV, gets hit by flutter, all this in my mind, like looking at it from, if I were to design a high-end fabric for parawing, I don't think ultra high molecular weight is that like useful. Like they do have some really, really light materials. So.
Daniel Paronetto (1:22:29)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:22:49)
Dyneema makes like a laminate with polyester film and they use like a really fine adhesive to glue a non-woven ultra-high molecular weight. So it's really expensive. It's like something like 30 to 40 US dollars per square meter. you'd probably increase your...
Daniel Paronetto (1:23:07)
How does that compare with
like a ripstop in terms of cost? I'm just curious because I have no idea of that.
Greg (1:23:10)
That would be like, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it be like probably eight times the cost. β But yeah, so let's just say it would double the cost of your parawing though, roughly. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:23:17)
wow, huge, yeah, enormous.
Greg (1:23:25)
So some people could afford that, but then the problem is those materials, the polyester has a really bad folding endurance. So, and it's not great in, mean, I don't think UV really matters for a pair of wing, because it's not like it's a kite where you're like sitting it out on the beach, but I think you'd have that flutter issue. And then I also just think it's overkill, like you don't really need it. So I kind of think the battleground is going to be in terms of materials is going to be between like nylons and polyesters. So.
Daniel Paronetto (1:23:38)
Mm.
And is that the difference
between what Greg's using with the BRMs and what everybody else is using basically with their pair? I don't know what Greg's using. It's such a unique material.
Greg (1:23:59)
I don't know, yeah, don't know what he's using.
don't, like a nylon, like generally they only have like silicone coated nylons, which you can feel it because it like, your hands feel slippery after you touch it, because you get some of that silicone on your hand. Whereas a kite fabric, it's more crispy. And that's because polyester is stiffer inherently than nylon. β But nylon is lighter.
Daniel Paronetto (1:24:13)
Mm-hmm. yeah
Greg (1:24:26)
polyester so you could get a lighter fabric by going nylon.
Daniel Paronetto (1:24:26)
Mmm.
Greg (1:24:32)
absorbs a bit of water and it's worse in UV so that's why it hasn't been used for kite canopies because you'd get it toasted in UV and then it absorbs a bit of water but it doesn't it absorbs about three or four percent of its weight in water compared to polyester which is something like 0.2 percent and then ultra-high molecular weight is zero it doesn't absorb anything but it's like something like more than 10 15 percent lighter so it's even with it like absorbed water you'd still β have a weight advantage using nylon
And I think the UV is probably not a consideration because like somebody that's used a pair of wing for like two seasons How many hours of UV has it really seen? I don't think it's that bad β The kites that get toasted are because they're left on the beach and they're set to flutter in the in the wind
Daniel Paronetto (1:25:19)
Yeah.
So, so we're saying that material wise, not that we've reached, you know, the end game, but you don't see too much in that advancements. was really hopeful for materials to become lighter, to become more malleable. And like you said, you know, that crispiness of the ripstop when you're trying to get air out can be a deterrent. Like you just have to squeeze it and it doesn't really breathe that well. And the one thing that I think the BRMs have is as soon as you.
You have it in your hand. just, it disappears. just like it go and you're like, how has it released all that air? It's so interesting to kind of double click on between.
Greg (1:26:00)
that's a great point.
I haven't actually considered that porosity. β So I think the conventional thinking would be when you add porosity and let it breathe that you decrease sale performance. But.
Daniel Paronetto (1:26:05)
Mmm.
Greg (1:26:14)
There is a thought that when you have your sail and you're creating like your high pressure surface here and this is your low pressure surface, like it's just a wing, that if you have some amount of porosity that it helps β the flow on the backside adhere. Yeah, like there are some flight wings that actually pump air out onto the top surface of the wing to adhere the flow on the back so you could get... So there is...
Daniel Paronetto (1:26:27)
Like the with the drive
Greg (1:26:40)
there could be a study done, like there should be a study done by one of these bigger companies of like, what is the ideal amount of porosity? And maybe the ideal amount is zero, right? But maybe it's not. β So, and that would be a great coincidence if the ideal amount of porosity also contributes, like makes the wing easier to pack.
Daniel Paronetto (1:26:59)
interesting. Well, I, β I felt a lot of difference between the flow to the ozone already, both 32 gram ripstop, but I felt like the, the flow was a little bit crispier and the ozone when it was wet, it became a little bit more sticky.
to redeploy, it didn't have that crispy kind of redeploy. Is that a coding thing that differentiates one from the other? Because I think Flow had a 38 gram material initially and then they went to 32 across the board.
Greg (1:27:18)
Mm-hmm.
It's probably a coating and material thing. My guess would be the ozone is nylon, but it could just be coating. I don't know. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:27:39)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:27:43)
But if it's just a coating thing, then that's obviously not really affecting performance as far as like the fibers itself. But if you are using nylon, one of the downsides of nylon as well as the water thing, which is not really, is it's stretchier. So even though you could get a lighter parawing of the same strength, like you could, if you had a palayester parawing and it was 32 GSM, I could have the same strength and tear resistance with say like a 27 gram parawing, but.
Daniel Paronetto (1:27:55)
Yeah, that's tough.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:28:09)
is going to stretch more than yours. And that's, fairly significant, like it might be like twice as much or something. So you might lose aerodynamic performance β at the high end. Like my para wing would probably be better in light wind because I could fly it and it would stay in the wind. But then when I get like really lit up, it's going to start bagging out, whereas yours would stay crispy and, and go up wind better.
Daniel Paronetto (1:28:24)
Mmm.
That's so cool, man. love that technical stuff. β where are we going with this, Greg? Where, where, where do you think, you know, β the next wave of growth will come from for pair winging. β and who's, who's the next wave of adopters for this, for this sport?
Greg (1:28:51)
β I think it's wingers and I I guess I'm curious about two things. It's like I'm curious how many people are sub foiling in a year or two from now like I My prediction is it's only gonna be some guys that are really into racing because I see I think there's like a beauty and purity and like I've got a board and a paddle and a foil and you've got a board and a paddle and foil and who can go there fastest like even though it's not personally what I'm into I think that is like a beautiful
Daniel Paronetto (1:29:07)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:29:20)
part of the sport and like using those waves and it's almost like the most pure form of foiling. It's just like who can all you've really got is a foil and your your muscles and waves and so I think that's that's awesome but I think that's not what most people are looking for like most guys that have a job and are paying retail for their gear are like they're looking to go out there and ride waves and like you know dance with nature and I just think the pair wing is a way better tool to do that. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:29:37)
Mm.
Greg (1:29:47)
My prediction is that we're gonna go higher aspect with the pair of wings. And I think, like I look at the Ozone compared to some of the others, and like that is clearly higher aspect. And I just, kind of see that going further. β But I guess it's contrary to.
Daniel Paronetto (1:29:51)
Mm-hmm.
pretty drastic, β
Greg (1:30:04)
maybe what you're liking with the shorter lines because you'd have to kind of, I think, I'm not a pair of wing designer and like I don't know, but in my opinion to go higher aspect, you probably have to go longer lines or else it would just collapse the wing, you know?
Daniel Paronetto (1:30:18)
think it makes sense. Otherwise it's
Greg (1:30:20)
because in my
mind the dream is like and I don't think this is necessarily achievable, but it's like kite foil like kite race foil upwind combined with you know like basically like foil assist like you're on a small board and so β So yeah finding that aspect ratio that's the balance between usability But although interestingly like with kite foiling I've tried some of the bigger foil kites and they're really
janky to use. I don't like how slow they turn, but then when you try like a four or five meter because
Daniel Paronetto (1:30:49)
Mm.
Greg (1:30:54)
It's slower. almost preferred a four or five meter foil kite to a four or five meter leading edge just because it stabilizes. So I almost think like when we're talking about two, three meter pair of wings, having like a really stable high aspect wing is not going to be a downside. Like I don't really care how well it turns compared to where it's like when you're talking about a 12 meter kite. Like you really don't. It's so slow if you have a really high aspect 12 meter kite.
Daniel Paronetto (1:30:58)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
β but I just like to pick people's brains and understand where they see it's where it's going.
Greg (1:31:22)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (1:31:25)
Is there anything that we needed to know about Omen, Omen Falls? If you haven't touched about your boards, man, like honestly, I love your, β the board picking tool that you did. I'm going to give you my answer for what my perfect board is. It's the Emissary High Performance Wing and Prone 44 liters. That's what it gave me as a result. β And I love what you're doing.
very approachable, very easy for people to understand what boards they want to use, very customer centric. So just give us a little, you know, β information about Omen foils, your gear, β and, and what you suggest for people to choose for para winging.
Greg (1:32:04)
β So yeah, for our boards we've got...
Our line is, we started with the Flux, that's our original board, and I think that was quite progressive when it came out because it was, rather than the like boxy boards at the time, it was longer and narrower. β Now I think it would be kind of considered a more moderate board, but two years ago it was quite progressive. So there was a lot of R &D that went into that hull shape and keeping the tail wider to allow you to ride a smaller board because it creates lift when it's submerged, like it basically acts like a wing.
And then when it gets to the surface, it's stable. the kind of, think that was really what built Omen as a company is guys that were looking for like a 90 liter board would try our 60 liter and never dreaming that they would be on a 60 and then like getting up in lighter wind than they were on their 110 liter kind of like pizza box board and just like blown away. I know with, because I can see the sales and like the locations on from Shopify, it would be like we would go a week or two without a sale and then we'd sell.
Daniel Paronetto (1:32:57)
That's awesome.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:33:07)
a board in one place and then it would arrive you 10 days later and then like five days later we'd have like three or four boards sell in that area and then like it would just we'd have these pockets that would grow and it's just I'd always get the like oh dude like I I went out on my 60 litre and everybody's laughing at me and then I was up I was the only one up and riding so that really like I don't know solidified us in in winging is having that that board that was like
Daniel Paronetto (1:33:14)
Amazing.
That's awesome.
Greg (1:33:32)
lot of R &D went into just making it more efficient, a more efficient haul specifically for the speed range you go through to get on foil with it with a typical wing foil or prone for that matter. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:33:41)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:33:46)
So then our next board is called the Emissary, which is basically a more extreme version of the Flux in terms of like we're compromising user friendliness to make it just like more efficient and writing smaller foils. So, and it's kind of confusing because we have four small sizes from 28 to 55 that are really like prone and high performance wing boards.
And they kind of have that, it's a more pulled in tail than the flux because we're really focused on once that board is up in the surface, like how can we make it as efficient as possible through fluid dynamics and using like different computational tools.
Whereas with, and that's like kind of that more projection rather than taking off on a wave. Whereas things change when you get to the 66 liter and the 78 and the 90 to really being, and my goal when I first started doing that board, my goal was actually to make like the perfect drop anchor board or like light wind board.
Daniel Paronetto (1:34:34)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:34:50)
Because using the 60 liter flux, I didn't like the paddle back to my wing. So I was like, I want something that I can get. And also, my big wing, I'd have to use like a five meter to get up on my board if it was light wind or whatever. So let's say it's a four.
Daniel Paronetto (1:34:57)
That's interesting.
Greg (1:35:06)
it would fly away quickly. So I wanted to be on the smallest wing possible. So I started designing those boards as like a high performance, low energy board that like would use the minimal drag as possible. So, and then through that process, parawing became a thing. And I really started orienting that design towards specific to the parawing β rather than do like a.
Daniel Paronetto (1:35:27)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:35:30)
typical light wind board that has compromises for high wind. So it has that light wind ability while also doing super well when it's 40 knots and super messy. So β that process was really just using CFD tools and building different variations.
CAD versions of the board and then competing them against each other at various angle of attacks and various speeds through the water and kind of learning what we did there and then building other variations and just kind of like continually honing down on like what is the least amount of drag in the speed range in this angle of attack range that we can create with a board. β So that was really the genesis for those boards and it's why I think they're working particularly well for for for parawing and I think when you go to Hood River Hill
Daniel Paronetto (1:35:58)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:36:22)
you'll get a chance because there's a bunch of them out there with parawingers right now.
Daniel Paronetto (1:36:25)
Nice. Yeah. I want to try them, man.
I, β I'm a sucker for, β you know, people who build things that have your mindset, like super data driven and technical and they, they, they like the data. They like the, the challenge of numbers and the correlation of numbers and feeling. love that stuff. So, and I feel like you're that type of person, correct me if I'm wrong, but you love that stuff. Don't you?
Greg (1:36:51)
Yeah,
yeah, there's very little artistry in the boards. and it's actually something, I was talking to somebody that shapes surfboards, and he, he's buying one of ours, and he's a great surfboard shaper, and he was like, β man, like.
Daniel Paronetto (1:36:56)
Mm.
Greg (1:37:05)
That'd be so hard to do what you're doing. And I was like, I feel the other way. I would be so intimidated to shape a surfboard because you can't quantify it. Like it's just all experience and like this rail transitions to this. And it's just so much, it's so nebulous and so based on feel that I don't think like, I bet I could shape 20 surfboards and like still not really know is this doing this? Like there's just so many competing variables because there's all these different ways that it interacts with the water in different directions. Whereas
Daniel Paronetto (1:37:09)
Mmm.
Greg (1:37:35)
wingboard or parawing board or prone board it's like there's only a few things that it has to do well it has to get up to the speed of your foil with as little drag as possible it has to touch down really well going straight and then at an angle and like I'm trying I think there's one other thing that blanking right now but it's like not much
Daniel Paronetto (1:37:54)
Do you think that β
the effect that the board has once it's out of the water makes any difference to like being able to go up wind, just having wind on the board actually, like the aerodynamic, you know, features of the board once it's out of the water?
Greg (1:38:04)
Yeah.
It definitely does. mean, like, certainly size matters a lot in that regard. And then as well as, like, if you have a longer, like, a longer kind of board with, like, rather than having, like, super flat rails, if you have something that the fluid, because it's the air is just a fluid coming at it, like, say, an oblique angle flowing over the board is going to be better than... β
Daniel Paronetto (1:38:13)
Mm.
Mm.
Greg (1:38:35)
something that's hitting a box and creating a bunch of drag. And then I think also having like a board that has the volume more centered throws you off less than having something like more bulbous in the front and the back. think.
Daniel Paronetto (1:38:36)
Hard rail, yeah.
Greg (1:38:50)
One thing that I've heard a lot is like a lot of guys, want that drop deck on the board, which I do think is it has a real place because it's, you can have a higher volume board and then be closer to your foil. Like the same thing by having a shorter mast. The downside of having the drop deck, which or by the same thing is the bulbous nose is you add all your volume where you least want it, which is you're adding, like some guys look at our boards, our 66 liters, six feet long. It's like, well, yeah, it's six feet long,
but you know, the front foot of it is like so thin and like it's not much swing weight. Whereas if you had this big bulbous nose, now you've got that all out in front of you. Secondly, I would say that if you look, if when you're pair winging and you're in like, let's just say it's like barely enough to get up or not enough to get up and you're hauling on that pair wing, the front of your nose, unless you're on like a real crazy sinker, is out of the water.
Daniel Paronetto (1:39:25)
Nothing here.
Greg (1:39:46)
So, Bulba's nose, all that volume is above the waterline. So it is not floating you, it's actually sinking you. It's like, so it's not doing anything.
Daniel Paronetto (1:39:53)
It's trading
Greg (1:39:54)
the volume that's out of the water is not floating me. It's just, it's sinking me. Like it's minor. It's maybe, let's just say it's like 200 grams of board, but it's like, it's certainly not giving me, it's not displacing any water. So it's not causing any float. So.
Daniel Paronetto (1:39:56)
I see, I see.
Mm-hmm.
I understand what you're saying now. So get that
volume towards the middle makes the board just flow. Use the volume to the most of it. It's advantage really. Yeah.
Greg (1:40:15)
Yeah, the only volume
that's floating you is that which is submerged. So if you're riding in those like really threshold permission and you're looking and there's a bunch of volume out of the water, that volume can be removed. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:40:26)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:40:27)
with no downside. So when people are saying like, I'm getting, I have this bulbous nose and it's adding 20 liters of volume. So I've got an 80 liter instead of a 60 liter. It's like, you don't really have an 80 liter in the conventional sense because you haven't, you haven't added water line. You haven't added volume that's submerged. That's going to cause that flotation. So.
Daniel Paronetto (1:40:40)
Interesting.
Greg (1:40:48)
That would be like my criticism of the ball-bust nose. The benefit of the ball-bust nose, which is significant, is that for a beginner, like, not a beginner, but somebody that's not, hasn't have great foil skills, or even anybody, the way you fall off these boards is often over the front, right? So with our 66 liter, for example, like there's not much volume up there. So it's a more technical board. If you start falling forward when you're not really moving, you're going to keep falling forward. Whereas if you have a big ball-bust nose, now you've got this beach ball.
Daniel Paronetto (1:40:51)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:41:18)
that you're plugging into the water and gives you that like positive β writing moment.
Daniel Paronetto (1:41:19)
Mmm.
Greg (1:41:25)
So that's kind of just like, it was something that I had to think a lot about is like, what's the benefit? And it was really a year or so ago when I was thinking about the Emissary, it's like, where do I want to put the volume? And I think for a skilled rider, because you do want the board as thin as possible, but you really want the board volume under you. And that is one is because that is what's submerged. So that's actually what's floating you. And then two, β
Daniel Paronetto (1:41:42)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:41:52)
You want the most waterline as you can, and you want it as narrow as you can to get up, but β you don't want that weight pushed out. So bringing that weight central, it's going to give you that kind of like shortboard kind of style turning β without decreasing your light wind more than, you know, than it could otherwise.
Daniel Paronetto (1:42:13)
Yeah, mate, that makes so much sense. Like I, it's, um,
yeah, I like that idea. I'm thinking to myself now, because I want to change my 85 liter board to something else. have a very kind of old shape, 85 liter board that, um, I want to use when it's light wind, but it's not really conducive for those, um, conditions just because of the dimension. So I'm thinking that now I have a five, eight by 20 by 65 liters. That's what I'm using most days.
Um, and then when I want to do a light wind kind of writing, I'm thinking about something that's around six, four, six, six max six, four, think for me would be enough, maybe around 20 and a half wide. And, um, I want to, to have it at 85 liters still, but then what you're saying about keeping all that volume.
Greg (1:42:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (1:43:06)
right at the center, this is where I'm thinking about the shape, that makes total sense for that board and having a small nose because it's gonna be a little bit longer. It's still gonna feel great if you have that volume placed in the right place.
Greg (1:43:19)
Yeah, yeah, and that's I guess that would be my main
point is like it's only helpful after you've got the board and tried it so but like if you notice that there's a you've added a bunch of volume to the nose and it's above the water when you're when you're grinding and can barely get up that volume is not helping you it's only it's well it's helping you if you're tipping and falling off the board but if you're at the skill level where you're more concerned about I just want the smallest board possible in terms of swing weight and I want to be able to get up in super light wind then I would say that's really what
Daniel Paronetto (1:43:26)
Yeah.
Greg (1:43:52)
you're looking at is you're you're wanting most of the volume of your board to be submerged to actually be floating you not out of the water and there and ready for stability.
Daniel Paronetto (1:44:01)
So you're saying that
I can bring that six four to maybe a six. So, and have better volume placement or it's that length. Yep.
Greg (1:44:09)
I would say keep your length, like the length
is pretty key, that, the length is how, the length basically dictates when you transition from displacing water to planing.
Daniel Paronetto (1:44:21)
Mmm.
Greg (1:44:21)
So, and it's not a smooth transition, like a board that's moving will displace water and then the surfaces start creating lift just like a wing. And you're never gonna be like on a wing board. It's never gonna be purely planing and skipping across the water. You'll be on foil, but that it's like the planing is kind of defined as like when you, if in a boat, you create that bow wake and then to like leave when you are officially in planing is when your boat has climbed over that bow wake.
Daniel Paronetto (1:44:35)
Yeah.
Greg (1:44:50)
So that is just a function of length. So if you look at a ship that's moving like a container ship, they're going so fast, like so fast, but they're not planning, like they're not getting up on step. And it's just because they're so long that they can, they're not crossing, they're not like crossing over that bow wake. So, and that takes a ton of energy to do that. And then, you know, the energy drops once you're, once you're in planning. So I think waterline is good and you want the waterline. And of course, I mean, you know, the,
Daniel Paronetto (1:45:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:45:20)
You want the, I think width is like, number one thing is comfort. If you go too narrow, like you just can't control your foil anymore unless you're in Maui and on the water seven days a week. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:45:28)
Yeah.
Greg (1:45:34)
So, and then as well as you thin out your board if you go. So there's like a compromise there with width that I think is like, you know, to an individual preference, but I like waterline, but I guess my point is more like at your skill level, it's more like, I think a thinned out nose to have the length, but you don't need the volume there. You don't need to be dealing with that swing weight if you can keep it out of the water. Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:45:43)
Mm-hmm.
I think it's so cool to talk about that. I could talk, I could talk to you for hours, mate. Look,
I, I w I want to keep this under two hours because we're at one 56 now. we have to have you have you back, man. think, if you have a chance to go to hood, β last two weeks of July will be incredible. β if you are around, there's a lot of cool people gonna heading down there. β and it's going to be a paraling fest. So it'd be really cool to.
Greg (1:46:05)
Let's do it. Yeah.
Yeah, let's do it.
Daniel Paronetto (1:46:24)
You know, meet you there in person, β get to ride your boards. I'm going to do that regardless. Cause I'm really curious about how they, how they feel. β and I'm just a big fan of your stuff, man. I love the way you think. love, β your products, you know, the website's also clean. love, β something that has that, β technical side, but it also has an artistic side and feeling supernatural. think those words resonated with me very much like you, when you're on foil and you're doing this stuff, you feel like you have a superpower. β
And I think that's cool that you brought into β your designs and allowing people to feel supernatural also. So well done, man. And thanks for coming on.
Greg (1:47:01)
Yeah, thanks Dan.
And well, I appreciate you hosting this and I've gotten a ton out of your podcasts and out of the interviews. So yeah, man, keep it up and I'm stoked. I'll probably be there in Hood River at some point in that period. yeah, looking forward to riding together. All right, talk to you later.
Daniel Paronetto (1:47:14)
Awesome, man. Well, let me know and we'll see you there.
