Speaker 2 (00:00)
day we have Dave West with us Dave Shadon Parrowing
Speaker 1 (00:05)
I
always look forward to your introductions of people. And so I was like, oh, I definitely got to give this a go. And I didn't expect the challenges that I ran into. Our first session was horrendous. There was a day where I was just like, I want to quit. So everybody just leaves me alone. I was just getting destroyed.
Speaker 2 (00:19)
because you posted a video that I didn't like.
Speaker 1 (00:22)
The very premise that people take a paddle with them as a safety precaution.
Speaker 2 (00:28)
I'm gonna rip into you a little bit because I disagree with a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:31)
You say my counter to not shuttling.
Speaker 2 (00:34)
The other thing that I think you will not agree with...
Speaker 1 (00:37)
Fuck this sport. I don't think it's going to replace full wave riding. Firstly, you wouldn't have been able to use the power wing to get back in. One that goes in your favor is travel. I'll raise a point and give you that point. I'll lobby that one. I think early on I thought my foiling ability would make it easier. I was going to make this reel the other day. I'm like training for power wing. That was going to be like putting out the washing for my wife. β
Daniel Paronetto (01:13)
Welcome to the lab rat for the podcast my name is Dan and today we have Dave West with us. Dave shat on parawinging he is the naysayer he is the man who's here to destroy parawinging. Welcome to the podcast mate.
Dave West (01:30)
Thanks, mate. I always look forward to your introductions of people because they're usually a lot nicer.
Daniel Paronetto (01:36)
There is a lot that we have a we have a bit of a great debate going on paddle versus parawing, which we'll get into. But in all honesty, man, β I really admire everything you've done. You're a professional foiler, β DJ, YouTuber, and you have a pro model with Amos which I recently bought the Cypher, which we want to get into and discuss why that's such an awesome parawinging board. Welcome to the podcast. Is that a little better?
man. Yeah, that's a lot better. β dude we, β we have lots to talk about you. You did a really cool kind of series on learning to parawing I did a similar thing. All my first sessions are out there. β we'll get into that, but before we dive into parawinging and just downwinding in general, tell us a little bit about your background in sports. β where did you start in board sports and how did you get into foiling?
Dave West (02:31)
So I was just one of those kids that grew up skateboarding, obsessed with X games. I'd record it every Sunday on like a VCR. And then, cause my parents would take us to church and I miss it. But skateboarding then, as soon as I saw kite surfing, I was like, that is amazing. So I was living in Adelaide at the time and I started kite surfing I think when I was about 14. So I'm 35 now.
which was really difficult as a 14 year old to get your parents to buy you gear. So I had like the shittiest slingshot fuel that lasted me like four years. I don't know how.
Daniel Paronetto (03:10)
Mind you, the fuel probably has the same shape today as it has back then. Graycott, yeah.
Dave West (03:13)
Hmm, great kite. I still love your, like if I
got back into kiting, I'd go back on sea kites. I just love them. It's just, that's what destroys your elbows. It's great. And then it does it. It does. And then yeah, I moved to Darwin and started wakeboarding because there's no real wind in Darwin. And so I started cable wakeboarding and boat wakeboarding to sort of fill the niche. And I got pretty good at that.
Daniel Paronetto (03:19)
Yeah, classic.
I it. It feels like a parawing actually.
Dave West (03:42)
Reasonably quickly. I never got like amazing at kite surfing like I liked wake style, but I never you know, I sort of bottomed out at Mobs and stuff that was about as far as I got Yeah, well I can't now I don't think I could do it anymore and then but I started to do those tricks on cable and because of the consistency You could just go every day. It was amazing and then I moved to the Sunshine Coast and there's an
Daniel Paronetto (03:55)
That's pretty good man. Not everybody can chuck a moeb.
Dave West (04:11)
amazing cable park here and I just cabled, I used to cable three to four hours a day while I was at uni so I didn't do much uni and man it was, I still like wish my body could handle it but it's like
Daniel Paronetto (04:19)
I had a cable phase, it's good.
It's so hard on the body, man. I'm 41,
so I come out of the water, I feel like a fucking tractor just ran over me.
Dave West (04:33)
And you remember it because you go back and do one session the next day you cannot walk. It's insane because everything's bracing and it's it's the strongest I've ever been when I cabled because β you just you have to be strong and you know, anyway. So that just destroyed my body. And β I started surfing a lot at the same time because I didn't really grow up near the beach. So I didn't surf much and just got
Daniel Paronetto (04:38)
Yeah, it's true.
Mmm.
Dave West (05:02)
deep into surfing, loved surfing, completely obsessed. And then during the pandemic, I was one of the pandemic babies of foiling and saw foiling. I saw guys where I just was just then. And I was like, that's insane. And had heaps of free time because I worked as a medical rep and they, essentially my job shut down. So I had heaps of time on my hands and yeah. So a few different sports.
Daniel Paronetto (05:27)
What did you see?
it wingers that you saw that you were like, I want to do that or kite foiling? Prone. Yeah.
Dave West (05:31)
Nah, prone. Prone.
We don't really have any kite foilers here. We've probably got maybe two or three that pop up every now and again. Definitely not a kite foiling scene here. It's winging and β prone for the most part, but really mainly winging. And then...
Daniel Paronetto (05:48)
Yeah, so then you
got into prone foiling. How long did you go β into that before you started winging?
Dave West (05:51)
Yeah.
probably only three months. And then I saw
some guys winging and I got deep into that too. So I winged a lot at the very beginning, like heaps. And that was fun. And I never really got very good at winging. part of my issue with winging was my elbows, because I've destroyed my elbows over the years with all these sports. And that, especially the early wings, like I had a Nash Matador and like, holy moly, that thing just destroyed your arms.
Daniel Paronetto (06:13)
Mm, yeah.
Remember the Matador.
Dave West (06:26)
Yes, so I want to draw some parallels from the Matador to the Encis Roger.
Daniel Paronetto (06:32)
The Matador,
has a very good name, Matador. It does really kill you. It is a killer, man. It's so heavy, that thing.
Dave West (06:39)
Mmm.
and then they'd bag out and you'd just be like, it's like having a plastic bag that you're just going, At the time it was great.
Daniel Paronetto (06:46)
You've got a great way. Great wing got us into it. Um,
it was great. Yeah. The first, um, I remember the first Nash wing I went out on, geez, it had no bottom end. And then when the Matador came out, it was the knees bees. It was like, this is next level. Um, so you said, you kind of, where did you cap out and winging? Like, are you, were you doing technical stuff? What was the purpose of winging? Was it wave riding and maximizing that?
Dave West (07:14)
I really started to want to do like freestyle, flat water freestyle stuff. And then I started trying to learn 360s and stuff and I lost interest so quickly because I was busting my ankles, you you're wearing straps. It's always a risk for your ankles and stuff. And just realized that I'm getting old enough that I don't want to get injuries. So I then leaned into wave riding and downwinding.
Daniel Paronetto (07:19)
Yeah.
Dave West (07:43)
Suck Down winning really was exploding and I jumped on that bandwagon and I haven't looked back since I like, I don't put on straps, I don't do freestyle. I'll do strapless ears like prone, but I think that's safer than strapped ears personally. β So.
Daniel Paronetto (07:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I hear what you're saying. Did you,
how was the down-winding, the sub down-winding journey for you? Cause man, I felt like that's the hardest discipline I've ever had to learn in foiling.
Dave West (08:10)
for sure. It's... And this is probably the biggest point of difference is like learning to suck downwind, especially for me not having any paddle background was extremely difficult. There was a day, and I think I put this in one of my β long YouTube videos where I wanted to... Like I was at the point where I could have cried. I was on my board in the ocean.
We were three hours, I was three hours into a 15K run, like so exhausted, two kilometers out to sea and just sitting on my board over my chest, just being like, just defeated man. And it's the most character building thing I've ever done, like other than having children, literally, like other than children, it's the most I've had to develop myself internally.
Daniel Paronetto (08:48)
Why am I doing this?
Mm-hmm.
Man, that's so
true.
Dave West (09:06)
Like, it's insane.
Daniel Paronetto (09:08)
I had one day where I, and I had a similar thing, man. I would just go and like even smaller runs here in the Bay, five Ks, and it would take me an hour. And I'm like, what am I doing? And one day I got the paddle and I just whacked the paddle on the, on the water and my GoPro just went and had no, it had no floaty on it. It just sank. And I'm like,
Dave West (09:29)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (09:29)
So I lost a GoPro and
yeah that day wasn't a fun day. But yeah, the reward is good.
Dave West (09:34)
I've punched boards. I've done the punch down on the board
and put a big dent in it.
Daniel Paronetto (09:40)
Good thing you're sponsored by Amos. Like I need...
Dave West (09:42)
I wasn't at the time. So I think I was on a car.
I was on a carbon cow at that time.
Daniel Paronetto (09:48)
β carbon co. I wrote a lot of carbon co's too. β they're good, man. had, β yeah, Mitchie. He does. I haven't like gotten into his mid-lengths and downwind boards. β I had a Vape, the, the kite full board, sick board. Yeah. Little tray. cool. And then, well, you went like heavy into downwinding. You got really proficient at it. β are you doing the races this year?
Dave West (09:51)
Yeah, I saw that. Mitch, Mitch does a good job.
little tray.
Yeah, other than I'm not doing M2O. So I'm actually working on a video at the moment to explain why, but the crux of it is just the boats. It's actually the most dangerous thing you could possibly do for that race. And all credit to the organizers, it's incredibly hard to organize these events. β And there's a history of like the way that they've done safety too for the paddlers and prones. But like my boat, he was a good, you know, he was a good ocean man, but he couldn't...
Daniel Paronetto (10:25)
Yeah, man, that's...
Yeah.
Dave West (10:45)
get used to the fact that I'd go 35 Ks an hour, then suddenly drop back to 20. And so he's chasing me trying to keep up. And then he's right on my tail. And then I have to sit on a groundswell. And then I'm suddenly on a wind bump. you know, these boat drivers, they don't know what we do. So I'm suddenly cutting left and he's like literally a meter behind me. So.
Daniel Paronetto (10:51)
Hmm.
Jeez.
sketchy.
Dave West (11:12)
And then the wash. The wash is
Daniel Paronetto (11:14)
The wash is just crazy.
So how many people do it? It's like 70, is it like around 70, 100? All right, so look, that's just unreasonable, man. It's 100 and then 100 boats, one per competitor. Wouldn't it be easier? And how long is it? 40Ks.
Dave West (11:17)
It's a hundred this year. It's insane.
Yeah.
No, 56.
Daniel Paronetto (11:33)
56 case. All right, let's say 60 case. Wouldn't it be easier to like as part of your entry fee to have another 500 bucks and put like 20 boats one every five. Yeah.
Dave West (11:45)
Yep, that's what we've all said.
That's what we all said. And the other part of that is you could have people streaming. So you could have everyone link into some system. And then you've got like media that's staged as well. Not that you'd see everyone because everyone spreads out. But essentially, like you'd make a rule. So you'd have all the boats south, because the island is more north. So if you go past the boat on the south side, you're disqualified.
Daniel Paronetto (11:53)
Yes.
Dave West (12:12)
And so there's a line of boats and everybody stays north of those boats. And then... Nah, because...
Daniel Paronetto (12:17)
doesn't seem like a hard thing to really resolve because
you guys are paying how much does it cost to have a boat rider like two grand? two grand
Dave West (12:23)
two grand. Yep.
So the race costs, you know, two and a half thousand dollars just to enter. And so I like we're a little bit tighter on money this year. And so I was like, firstly, just the money savings from the boat and the race. And then I just because because I fell in the first I probably told this story before, but I was like right next to Oscar was next to Jack Ho.
Daniel Paronetto (12:30)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (12:50)
And then somebody's boat came past me to check if I was their rider. And then as they shot off to go find somebody else, I got hit by their chop and I got knocked off.
Daniel Paronetto (13:02)
Man, that is, that's my dog, sorry. That is, that is really bad. I mean, you should be disqualified for that, to be honest.
Dave West (13:04)
And it happened to other people too.
And they don't know any better. They're just desperately trying to find their writers. it's, yeah, and then I couldn't stand up, legitimately couldn't stand up for 15 minutes.
Daniel Paronetto (13:25)
Cause then you just in shitty water, backwash.
Dave West (13:26)
Cause
yep, so you've got all the boats of the front runners and I had an excellent start. I was one of the first up. β man. And then couldn't stand up. So anybody who was struggling at the back, I caught their boats as well. So I ended up coming like seven, 70th out β of a hundred people, which I was expecting to be 30 to 40. And that's probably.
Daniel Paronetto (13:32)
I'd be pissed off.
Yeah, man.
Dave West (13:53)
Yeah, and the exhaustion levels like a 15 minutes of trying to stand up because I kept trying I kept trying I shouldn't have I should have just accepted the reality conserve my energy. β Absolutely destroyed me and then I had two and a half hours of down winning in front of me. So it was brutal. I hated it. I absolutely hated it. And everyone's like, β man. And I, I just don't have that personality of the race adventure thing.
Daniel Paronetto (14:11)
Sounds like a great experience, man.
Yeah,
I know what mean.
Dave West (14:23)
Like people were like, but you've achieved this like crossing. I'm like, yes, but I didn't achieve it to the, you know, not even close to the best of my ability. Like that was one of my worst downwind rounds I've done in that entire year. But.
Daniel Paronetto (14:35)
Yeah. You'd
be better off just going out with your mates and doing that exact same run and just, yeah, without boats, surfing, just having the time of your life.
Dave West (14:40)
without boats. I'd do that for sure.
An adventure, absolutely, but not as a race I want to perform. So, but yeah, doing all the races and really excited. This might be my last Hawaii for a couple of years. Got to probably start prioritizing family holidays rather than foil holidays. So I'm really looking forward to this one because it could be the last one for a little while. You've got to, you've got to get over there if you can. It's, oh man.
Daniel Paronetto (14:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
I heard, go ahead. Yeah, man. haven't been to,
to Hawaii at all. I'm really keen to go to Maui. Like everybody's like, man, you have to come down. You have to come down. I'm like, well, this year I'm going to hood, which I'm stoked, stoked about that'll be July. Um, and I don't know. I think, I don't know if there's a race. know you and is doing like, um, he's doing an event, like a kite event.
Dave West (15:17)
nice. Yeah.
Is there a rice there when you're there?
Daniel Paronetto (15:32)
But I don't know if it's gonna, there's gonna be a race, like a downwind race you're saying?
Dave West (15:35)
Yeah, I think there is I think there's one that like so many people don't go to because of the Hawaii race, but apparently it's really fun. So
Daniel Paronetto (15:41)
Mm-hmm. β
if there's a race, I'll join it. I'll join it on the Paralympic just to, you know.
Dave West (15:48)
Yeah, well, and we should talk about this, the Parawing Race Divisions, because I think... Anyway, keep going.
Daniel Paronetto (15:53)
There's something there now. And we spoke
about this and I spoke, I interviewed Elliot LeBeau the other day. β and we kind of came to the same place that we chatted about a little while back about, β what a parowing race could look like. β and they're doing paddle paddle and moolah this year is, doing a parowing division. A lot of people are joining that. And I think maybe next year, M2O might have a, a parowing thing as well.
Dave West (16:05)
Hmm.
Well, it's like numbers is the, especially in Australia where we don't really have, you know, critical mass of sub downwinders. I think we've got to start getting the wingers and parowingers and even four wheel drivers, foil assist involved in downwind runs. It does present some unique challenges, which I saw in Barcelona. Like, um, I was, there was only two of us that finished a race in the four wheel drive division. Oh, sorry. Three, sorry. Three out of seven. So, but what it meant was
Daniel Paronetto (16:30)
Yeah.
out of how many.
Dave West (16:49)
the only four people that worried the organizers were all in the foil assist division. Yeah, and so you don't want a whole division that gives you concern. So I think for future, like that you'll need to show that you can complete a run of that distance. So for the sunny coast race that we're going to run this year, we're going to have a foil assist division, but we're going to say like, you need to show us that you've completed at least a 10 kilometer run. Obviously it doesn't, you can fall.
Daniel Paronetto (16:55)
Yeah, then this becomes a hassle.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dave West (17:19)
but
within say an hour or something, it needs to be within a reasonable timeframe or else you as an organizer are like where the fuck is everyone?
Daniel Paronetto (17:28)
Yeah, yeah. And what was it?
Were they just like, I don't know, recreational four drivers? Yeah.
Dave West (17:33)
Yeah, they just didn't downwind. Yeah.
And so and so the parawing could be the same. Same as winging. You know, you could have a variable where people are, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't they're not actual downwinders. They are people who, you know, do 500 meter runs on a downwind run, but they can't downwind the whole way. And if you get a lot, you know, a lull in wind or something, you don't want to be like, Holy shit, our race is now five hours long, because these guys are belly, belly paddling.
Daniel Paronetto (17:38)
Mm.
Yeah, yeah.
Dave West (18:02)
on a short board. So it presents unique challenges that we need to have, β you know, safety boats and stuff for. So it's interesting.
Daniel Paronetto (18:02)
Yeah, that's a thing with parawinging.
Yeah. β I can see something like that. think the cool thing about doing maybe, but then it would have to be a pair of wings specific race would be to do a very short course that you do laps on, but then it doesn't work for all foiling divisions. Maybe it works for, for a drive, but not, β paddling. Dave, let's get into power wingy men. So what kind of drew your interest into this whole new discipline? Like when did you see it and you were like, I'm going to try one of them.
Dave West (18:21)
Yeah, yeah.
Hmm. Yeah.
Well, to be honest, there's this challenge as a person who makes content to be relevant. That's just a reality, Is like, you know, sup downwind has been pushed so hard that there are people that are like, it's not, it doesn't have the same pizzazz that it used to. β And so I was like, I definitely got to give this a go. And I'd love to do that, you know, for my audience β to see how I go with it and see how hard it is. And I absolutely see and do see
a lot of potential for parawinging. So it was a no brainer to give it a go and see how it all played out. And I didn't expect the challenges that I ran into. And I think that was probably where my frustrations came from. β I have caught, you know what? There was a day where I was just like, I want to quit. So everybody just leaves me alone. Because there was all these people that were like fanatical. β
Daniel Paronetto (19:19)
Hmm.
You got a lot of heat, haven't you? From,
Dave West (19:37)
Like almost religious veracity, just like, fuck you, Dave.
Daniel Paronetto (19:41)
Become a cult. β
It's a cult now,
Dave West (19:45)
And I get it because like when people shit on sup downwind, I'm like, no, it's just you don't get it. But so like when generic foiling podcast guys, when they were talking about sup downwind, I was like, no, no, it's just because you suck at it. And it's true. And I recognize that that hat was the same for me was that I was shit at it. So I couldn't see certain eventualities that I now do see, even though I'm still shit at it.
Daniel Paronetto (19:48)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yep.
Dave West (20:15)
But I see further down the line now.
Daniel Paronetto (20:21)
So tell us about those sessions. β I mean, for people who want to follow them, I highly recommend watching all of those videos because if you're getting into parawinging, you're gonna run into those things.
Dave West (20:31)
Watch all three, don't just watch one. Because if you watch the first one, you might not start.
Daniel Paronetto (20:37)
Yeah, that first one was like,
no, this is not for me. I saw you catching likes, maybe that was the second one that I saw you catching so much speed with a downwind board and just like eating it at like top speed at Mach 10. Just like face diving into the water, but let's go through those three sessions. Cause like any sport man, like when I started winging the amount of cursing in the water was ridiculous. I hated it.
Dave West (20:42)
I was off at eye.
man. Bush. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (21:06)
Cause you're just standing there. You don't know how to generate power. When I started with the paddle was the same thing, man, going on those runs that we spoke about and just eating it for awhile. So talk about those three sessions.
Dave West (21:08)
day.
So I think because I could wing, I did expect it to be easier. And I found winging fairly easy to learn. I'm not sure why, but I would actually say it was mainly because I would go when it was pretty windy. Yeah, that's like, what's it called? Foreshadowing. And so I, oh, I've forgotten what I was talking about now. What was the question again? Oh, first session was horrendous. Absolutely horrendous.
Daniel Paronetto (21:42)
Your first session. Yeah.
Dave West (21:46)
So I watched, I think I watched some of your videos and then there wasn't much else out there on my first session. There was a few from β Cynthia. And so I tried to watch some videos, but there was things that I, you know, like you just watch a video, but you don't, you scroll through all that sort of thing. And so there's stuff I missed. So I went out in 12 knots and it's so bad. And, β
Daniel Paronetto (22:09)
β God. Even today it sucks, man. Yeah.
Dave West (22:14)
But I put on the 1540S, I was like, β sweet, like the foil will get me up. And I just thought as long as I can get the board moving, I'll be sweet. Got the board moving, nothing happened. And from that, like I wasn't angling correctly, I now know that. β Because when you get up with a wing, you actually angle more downwind than you do with a parawing, because you can pull yourself downwind.
you know what I'm talking about as you laugh, your angle is actually further downwind. Whereas a parawing, you build speed and then start to head across the window. And I just that didn't even occur to me. And I think that's because I never quite foiled. I think that's the end because it wasn't just cutting. It was quite foiling that I think I missed, which does put some pieces of the puzzle together for you.
Daniel Paronetto (22:45)
Yeah, the pumping, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
It does help,
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (23:13)
So that was really frustrating. And then I just essentially repeated the same mistakes the following two sessions. Cause I was keen to get onto it. And so it was like 12 knots again. I was like, well, like, cause we get that wind all the time. That's like our Sally's Deli will be 12 to 14 knots.
Daniel Paronetto (23:19)
You
my.
And you on the, 12 knots, you are 90 kilos, 96 kilos, sure. Big board, big, big, big foil. with the four two, that's the size you were using. So that's really underpowered, right? Like that's, β asking a lot out of the gear and out of the first sessions. then, so was that session one and two or session? mean, I'm talking more about the videos, not, the sessions. Yeah.
Dave West (23:39)
I was 96 at the time.
Yep. β
was number three. So
the first video referred to the first three sessions. β And then there was a session, the fourth session. So that was all from video one, the fourth session, it was 30 knots. And then I had a different experience. I was on the 1540s because I was like, I've got to get this freaking thing up. And then my god, I was just getting destroyed. And I, I couldn't hold on, I couldn't cut up wind.
Daniel Paronetto (24:05)
Okay.
Mm-hmm. Yes, too much.
Yep.
Dave West (24:28)
I didn't have a harness and obviously being that overpowered. β I was literally like holding onto the front lines like that to try and get some D power. β And then I ended up having to downwind home because I'd ended up so far downwind that I was like stuff this. And I did my first downwind, cause obviously, cause I can already downwind that wasn't an issue. So I just like, I was like, but I had no leash. So was like, β shit, this is dicey. So.
Daniel Paronetto (24:52)
Yeah, you just got up.
β my-
No leash on the board or on the parawing? Yeah, nah, that's...
Dave West (25:00)
on the board and it was like four foot swell.
So, but because I was planning to just be in this little safe bay, I was like, I don't need the leash. And then yeah, just got blown probably two K's away. And I was like, Oh man, I'm never getting back up wind. And so yeah. And that was the first time when I was like, Oh, and I was out there. was like, I can see why people would do
Daniel Paronetto (25:08)
Mm.
Dave West (25:24)
once they get up,
They do have a lot of grunt. They pull really hard. But it's just that initial get up phase that I've obviously β still been trying to work through.
Daniel Paronetto (25:37)
Have you tried your wing board? Or A-wing board with it?
Dave West (25:41)
Yeah, so I've tried the Cypher, but it wasn't windy enough. It's just, it's just this ongoing variable on the Sunshine Coast that we just don't get strong wind. So, and this is one of the things that I wanted to talk about is that we have this variable where when we get a southerly system, we'll get four to six foot swell as well. And so the challenge is when it is windy enough,
Daniel Paronetto (25:44)
Yeah.
Dave West (26:09)
the conditions are so crazy that it's not the sort of conditions that you would want to be out on a small board anyway, from a safety perspective. Cause if shit hits the fan, you're going to have to be coming through a surf zone. And I'd actually rather be on a big board than a small board if I had to do a big paddle in. But also β just getting up, you're not getting those runways because you fall in between the swells.
Daniel Paronetto (26:17)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (26:37)
and you get that like wind shadow thing that happens over the top of the swells. And so you're trying to get up. And what I experienced was β on this windy day that I went out is like, I get going and then the swell would come and I've dropped down and it's like the parawing wants to fall.
Daniel Paronetto (26:56)
Yeah, there's no winning the troughs because the troughs are so big β
Dave West (26:58)
because the troughs are so big.
And so I've come to this conclusion that if I lived where you are or like Hobart, so I've been, we've been talking about moving to Tasmania and I was like, absolutely I would have a full parawing quiver because they get such good wind and it's all bay bumps. And if it's 30 knots, it's still fun and safe. Whereas our 30 knots is so dangerous.
Daniel Paronetto (27:09)
Mm.
that's amazing.
Mm.
Dave West (27:27)
β And it's really like you can't surf either. So you don't you don't need to be on a short board because you're going so fast you can't turn you're doing Exactly and you and you have to keep up the groundswells or else you get caught in between and there's nothing in between
Daniel Paronetto (27:35)
Yeah, you're keeping up with the ground swell really in those conditions. Yeah.
Yeah. the thing, I don't know if people like that downwind or starting to downwind, they don't understand when it's big like that and you have groundswell, the size of the troughs are so big that pumping in between them becomes hard if you're not really good. Like they're long. And then when you're pumping, I think you lose too much speed and then the groundswell passes you and then you're just cooked, especially if you're on a high aspect or something. Yeah.
Dave West (27:54)
Hmm.
β yeah. Yep.
Yep. We call it no man's land. Like
there's two speeds that you need to go and when it's really big either super slow, which is I'm on a giant foil and you're like, and everyone will do this when they learning to downwind. You put on a giant foil and it's a big day, but you'll be like, I'm on a wind bump, I'm on a wind bump. Now a swell goes through and then it's flat and you're like, oh shit, pumping, pumping, pumping. And then something comes under you, you get a little boost.
Daniel Paronetto (28:15)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (28:34)
flat again. Whereas the fun part of big days is you're on a 600R and you're doing Mac one 40Ks an hour and then it's effortless. just, it's the best feeling. And on those days, which is when I could use the para-wing because we get enough wind, I want to pump, sorry, I want to paddle β for so many reasons, which we can get into.
Daniel Paronetto (28:35)
Yep.
Yep.
Mmm. Yeah. Paddle.
Mm.
Dave West (29:03)
I've realized that's what the biggest variable is why I think I see less opportunity for me is just where I live. It's it, the certain geographical areas are really suited to powering because you get you've got it. You've got surfy bumps in a bay and you've got strong wind and you've got easy launch and access. And as soon as there's big swell involved and big groundswell, you know, it's 20 to 30 knots. It's just a, it's a different type of downwind that
Daniel Paronetto (29:18)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (29:34)
you end up doing.
Daniel Paronetto (29:36)
Yeah, I get that. And look, we do a lot of downwinders in Torquay and like I try to keep up with the snow, Scott. They're just like lit up on those big days and it is hard. It is hard. But I think the getting up part in the, know, not having wind in the troughs, but if it's windy enough, you'll get up. No, you will get up. It's obviously a lot of water. have a lot of backwash here as well, especially if it's like just a suddenly, cause it just hits the cliffs and come
Dave West (29:40)
Mm.
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (30:06)
comes back, so it is messy. I feel like it's not something that you're going to get into in your first maybe year of learning to downwind. Those conditions are pretty, you know, pretty gnarly. β but as you become more experienced and as you become, you know, more interested in like more extreme conditions and stuff, you'll work up to it, but it's not an easy thing. So yeah, like just don't get out there and expect to, to nail a, an ocean run with, with big swell.
Dave West (30:16)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah.
Well,
and that's, there's two layers to my thoughts in powering. There's what it means for me. And that is what I think it means for other people and particularly people trying to learn to downwind. And I say like, so for me, it's a different set of priorities. Whereas for people learning to downwind, I am so supportive of powering. Like anything that reduces people's hurdles to get into downwinding, I'm so on board with.
Where I think it caps out is distance that I would encourage people to go. So say you do, I would never encourage anybody to do a 30K run without a paddle on a parawing because a 30K run is an hour and a half or so. And in those sort of timeframes, things will change. Exactly, like wind can die.
Daniel Paronetto (31:26)
Yeah, the conditions change a lot, true.
Dave West (31:30)
Whereas, you know, that five, even up to 10K range, I'm like, yep, that's the sweet spot for parawing, say, you know, car shuttle parawinging, β which is something I will always do because I just enjoy the downward leg so much more than an upwind β parawing leg. But, you know, that's also geographical. But the dangers around doing longer runs with only a parawing,
I think Patrick Redstocks talked about this a fair bit. That's where I think it caps out. But so many people never get beyond that point and they have no desire to, or they have no time to. So they wanna just do a 5K run. The Tassie crew, when I went there, they all just do pretty much five to seven kilometer runs.
Daniel Paronetto (32:18)
That's so quick man, like 5Ks takes nothing.
Dave West (32:20)
It's.
Exactly, but it takes nothing for you now, but so many of them are still falling and so for them it's like they could do a 5k run then go back upwind then do it again and that's where I'm like I totally get it if you've got these limitations of your geography it's such a good tool because yeah a 5k run with a car shuttle is not worth it. No, it's like whereas all our runs are pretty much
Daniel Paronetto (32:28)
Mmm.
No, definitely not.
Dave West (32:52)
12, 15 Ks minimum. And then our medium run is 30 kilometers and our big run is 45 kilometers. And that's the thing, like I'm riding with guys who are not your average riders and I've been in a bubble for too long that sometimes I forget. So.
Daniel Paronetto (33:00)
Yeah, that's significant.
Mm.
I agree with you with what you're saying. think a lot of the guys here that let's say you're an intermediate downwinder. Like you're not super advanced. think 10 Ks is the sweet spot for them. And now we have a run here that's 27 and now they're starting to think about it, but I'll do that 27 K run on the parrying. No issues, but I'm in a place where if I'm doing that, you know, I'm checking the forecast.
Dave West (33:36)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (33:43)
Three days before I know exactly what the wind's going to do. You know, I actually pay for apps that will give me detailed forecasting. So I actually know what's going to happen. And if the conditions are not right, I'll just pull the pin. Like, no, I'll just do a shorter run. You know, we'll just decrease the run because I've been out in the Bay and I was trying to cross the Bay from North to South. I was on a wing and the wind died in the middle of the Bay and it took me three and a half hours to swim to shore.
On one of those square wing boards that have no paddle and had SES trying to find me. Everybody trying to find me. had a black wetsuit, black and white board, black and white wing. So they were flying on top of me. They couldn't see me. And that is a gnarly situation, man. It just sucked. That was the worst thing. Anyway, let's, let's finish.
Dave West (34:18)
Hahaha.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. But because you
live in a bay, that's one of the benefits for you with the parawing. I've come into this more thinking about why I get why you're so keen on it. You live in a big circle, your bay pretty much. So all the good bumps are in the middle. So you want to get away from land, but getting away from land, you either drive 40 kilometres, or you get a parawing and you just
Daniel Paronetto (34:50)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dave West (34:58)
and then you're into the middle. Whereas, because we have such a straight coastline, it's where, you know, our bumps are the same two kilometres out as they are 500 metres in.
Daniel Paronetto (35:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
it does help. And I think for me, the thing with being in the Bay is like, if it's onshore cross on or whatever, you're still getting out and you're still doing a downwind run and it's fine. β but here I think, you know, one kilometer offshore, you're already in significantly deep water that that's good enough. So we would just paddle up and we would just cut out to that. It doesn't take that much to cut out a kilometer, but again, it's easier on the parallel wing.
Dave West (35:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. One of the things I was expecting to do more of was on our onshore days was to go parawing and then cut up wind. And what I found was that's when we get a lot of blue bottles. And so I was like, I'm not paddling out. Like there was days where I was like, oh, it's 18 knots onshore, straight east, straight onshore for us.
Daniel Paronetto (35:44)
Mm.
β god, you're like, in periling hell over there,
Those are good
conditions.
Dave West (36:03)
And the bumps are amazing when it's East because we then have nothing stopping our fetch. Like literally Hawaii is the next thing. Yeah. And so, β and yeah, I started paddling out, just got smoked my blue bottles came back in. was like, fuck this. So β yeah, it's less fun in that way. But what I am curious, so I've lost some weight recently. So I'm at 86 kilos now and I'm curious to see
Daniel Paronetto (36:10)
Infinite. Yeah.
Dave West (36:33)
how it changes getting up. Cause I've almost lost 10 kilos, which is not jump change. so, but we haven't had any wind. yeah, yeah. And I'm slower. it's, yeah. Like legit, like I went with Tibby the other day and Tibby's a big guy. He's big and athletic. He's 96 kilos and...
Daniel Paronetto (36:35)
β that's huge. No.
Did you cut because of the races? Yeah.
Nice, because you don't have that much speed now because you're lighter. Put some lead on your board,
Dave West (37:01)
and we're on the same bump and normally if we're on the same bump, I can stay with him. We're on the same bump and I finally experienced what everyone else experiences and he just took away from me. was like, shit. So, but anyway.
Daniel Paronetto (37:05)
Hmm.
no. Did you
downscale your foils a little bit now that you're lighter?
Dave West (37:15)
No,
we were on the same, the exact same setup, 770 and 120R. And so that was interesting. And I went on the 860 the other day and I was like, holy crap, this feels huge. And so I think I do need to make a whole jump every time. So I'm getting a 600R now, which I never thought I would, because the 680 was definitely where I sort of capped out. But now, yeah, I've got a 600R on the way. So I...
Daniel Paronetto (37:27)
Yeah.
Mm.
Dave West (37:45)
which is mental. So I'll be pretty fast on a 680, you know, six kilos, so, but not easy to paddle.
Daniel Paronetto (37:46)
That's awesome,
Let's finish those
sessions. What was the breakthrough moment for you after eating shit for so long when you got up, wind? What were the conditions? Yeah.
Dave West (38:00)
Hmm, wind, wind, wind, wind, wind. It's not that hard.
It was 18 knots and I went, where did I go? Somewhere, anyway, it was flat water and that definitely helps too. But 18 knots and I actually put on the 860R and I found that that was easier as well because the 1540 is such a beast that I'd be on my knees.
Daniel Paronetto (38:13)
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (38:29)
and it would try and take off.
Daniel Paronetto (38:32)
And with a downwind
board and like a huge foil like that, I think you would just be tracking in the water and it would be really hard for you to change, you know, your and turn or just put some weight to change the angle of your board. would just go. Yeah.
Dave West (38:45)
Yeah, Like
I'd have to have my outside β foot like hard on the rail to try and get some leverage to get that right angle to get upwind. So, β then keeping the parallel wing out of the water, which like even just getting on the board, I used to like let it sort of come down and get on my board and then sort of, and it just takes too long. So I sort of figured out how to just hold it in the air and get back on my board if I fell but.
you gotta watch that you don't crush your ball sack. Cause I got back on and like the ball just ended up in my nut and I just crushed my testicle. And then like you're getting pulled by the power wings. I was like, nut sack boom. And then you get pulled off. So, um, well legit. And then as soon as I learned to jive, I was like, okay, this isn't so bad. Cause when you, it's
Daniel Paronetto (39:27)
β God.
Enjoy your parowing.
Yeah, then you had
a session, it felt like you were in a flow of some sort.
Dave West (39:41)
One session, I just magically knew how to parawing. Like everything clicked. β yeah, and I was doing like around the world. So I was doing all, I don't know what you call it, but I was doing all this weird shit. Cause I just realized like they want to fly when it's windy. Anything below 15 knots, they just do totally different things. I, no, and neither will I. So I think.
Daniel Paronetto (40:04)
Yeah, I don't go out on a paring in those conditions. Yeah.
Dave West (40:10)
There's always that temptation when you're so excited at the beginning to learn something, you just go out in the conditions that you've got. And most people are gonna learn the hard way and that's fine. And I learned the hard way.
Daniel Paronetto (40:19)
But I like,
I, I'm like you dude. I'll go. And I did that because you need to explore the lower limit of it. Like what if you could get up in 15 hours? That would be amazing for you. We'd be doing it every day because that's the conditions you have, but now you know the limitations of the, of the thing. And then you went, I saw you got the skateboard out as well. Did that help you?
Dave West (40:31)
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, it did. It was, I was just bored out of my brains because we'd had no wind. And β yeah, that helped because you sort of realize like, you're just making things I think more natural. So I had that like, I literally had a fair few bad sessions. And then I had one session that wasn't too bad, which was the one where I β that was the one where I crashed really badly because I was going too fast. That was a good crash that took
Daniel Paronetto (41:04)
was a good crash. Please watch it if you haven't.
Dave West (41:09)
And then I did the skate session and then it was literally the next session that I was like, oh, I can do this all of a sudden.
Daniel Paronetto (41:17)
Tell us, tell us a little bit about that skate session because not many people are talking about it, but I feel like one of the best things you could do if you know how to skateboard and you're like confident on a skateboard is to take it out and just tell a little bit about like what wind and what size pair of wings you were using. Cause also you don't want to put people on a mission where they're, you know, 30 knots on a, on a skateboard.
Dave West (41:38)
Yeah,
definitely don't do that. It was like super light. was like 12, 13 knots. And this is where I think this is the only time I would use barrowing is 12 to 13 knots where the thing isn't going to get stuck to the water is and then one of those skate surf skateboards is way better. And just get out there and then you learn just how to tack and jive like it's it's just it's the same as like kite surfing like
Daniel Paronetto (41:45)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (42:07)
I can fly a kite without looking at it. And that is definitely the point that I think you want to get to with parawing where you can fly it without really thinking about it too hard. And because they do give you a lot of input in the bar once you get used to it. And it was just a case of mucking around and it really did translate. I was quite surprised. Cause then when you do something wrong, you're like, I can just pull the brake lines and the thing will fly backwards.
Daniel Paronetto (42:10)
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (42:37)
And that's the sort of stuff that I was getting away with. was like, shit, I made a mistake. I just suddenly pull it, you know, would just fly out backwards. And that'd be like, now I can just loop it and keep going. And so I think early on, I thought my foiling ability would make it easier, but it's the other way around. Same as kite surfing. It's actually your kite skills that make it easier. And I think I looked at it backwards.
Daniel Paronetto (42:38)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nice.
Yeah. Dude, when you learn how to kite,
what, how people stay in the on land for like two days, they literally fly the kite on land for two days before they touch a board. And then they go in the water without a board first and just body drag to feel the power of the thing. you know, people who are learning how to parawing, they take it, the parawing hand, they expect to like smash it. Yeah. It's, it takes a little bit of time and land drills are good.
Dave West (43:08)
Yeah, true. That's a good point.
straight on the water.
And it's the same as kite surfing. Like, you've probably had the same experience where you're underwater getting smashed by a wave kite surfing and you're still flying the kite to keep it in the air. Yeah, exactly. And all that stuff saves you from kite mares. But I just didn't, I think I've not kitesurfed for so long that it didn't like occur to me that like, it's the same thing.
Daniel Paronetto (43:39)
yeah, you're probably looping it to like keep it, the tensions on the line and there you go, something like that. Yeah.
Dave West (43:57)
The more you keep a parawing in the air, the better your session is gonna be in so many ways. They fly better when they're dry, that not sticking to the water, like the hanging out the washing thing. Like I was gonna make this real the other day, I'm like training for parawing. I was gonna be like putting out the washing for my wife. So, yeah, and then throw it in the air. But the other thing was the, I think it was Cynthia that I saw.
Daniel Paronetto (44:17)
That is good training actually, just let it drip.
Dave West (44:27)
is the whole, this was a real breakthrough. After you've sort of done a little downwind run, don't throw it out. Just let it hang. Because the man I was doing that every time and it would go backwards, back loop, push, pull you off. Just keep like get it out earlier. It was the best advice. Somebody else said it on your show as well. β Yeah, actually it was Steve yet. Great episode. Anybody should go watch and watch Steve.
Daniel Paronetto (44:48)
Probably Steve Tobis, I think he talked a little bit about that. Yeah.
Dave West (44:56)
And yeah, just let it dangle and then will uncoil and then you're off and away. and doing those things allows you to rely on your foiling ability to then help you manage the parawing. So.
Daniel Paronetto (45:08)
Yeah, cause you could pump for a day, I pumping is no problem. do. And I liked that the video that you posted about that dog start to parrying, like just trying to get up on the thing, man. Explain a little bit about that. Cause that was a cool one.
Dave West (45:13)
Yeah.
yeah.
Well,
yeah, that was, β I actually, so I finally got a pouch cause man, it's been hard to get a powering pouch is, yeah. I th that time I just stuffed it up in my shirt, but I thought genuinely people in Europe are going to do this. Like they are gonna dock start, have a powering stash somewhere, get up, fly around on a 20 litre board and have a great time. And,
what I'm gonna do next is surf pad, like prone paddle in on my surf setup with a parawing on my back, then get up and have a session. Cause like, I'm like, I don't see why that wouldn't work. And then when you crash,
Daniel Paronetto (46:02)
Interesting.
Well, you're just
getting on foil in a different way because if the problem is to get on foil.
Dave West (46:09)
Exactly.
So yeah, I can essentially go out when it's 20 knots and just prone chip in, have a little parawing sesh, and then you're riding the waves the same way you would because like you can't use a tow book in that. You could use a four wheel drive if you want, or you've got to try and pump up against a 20 knot wind to try and get back up to the point, or you use something like a parawing. So I actually see, anyway, I'm gonna give it a go. We'll see, it could be more.
Daniel Paronetto (46:18)
Mmm.
Mmm.
think that's gonna work.
Dave West (46:41)
I think so as long as my job is I just don't want to be tacking up wind and fall a long way off the point. That's what I'm worried about. So β that would suck.
Daniel Paronetto (46:49)
Yeah. Yeah. Look,
it would suck, but I think the thing that might get you stuck a little bit is because you're going to be, so you're going to paddle onto the wave. Once you get up, the power is going to be completely wet in the pouch and it's a little tip. So just make sure that the lines are all the way extended already. like when, when you pull it out, you, you obviously you're not, you're not going to get any tangles. Make sure of that. But once you try to deploy the parawing,
Dave West (47:05)
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (47:19)
Because it's already folded and then it's stupid dry, stupid wet, it won't like open up like super easy because everything's stuck in a little ball and it's compressed. So maybe once you launch it, just pull a little bit the leading edge, just to let it catch a little bit of air. And then it'll inflate. If you just like dangle it super wet, super compact, it is just going to continue to stay in that little ball. It's not going to deploy properly.
Dave West (47:49)
Bag of dicks as I say.
Daniel Paronetto (47:51)
Yeah, well, that's going to be a cool one to watch.
Dave West (47:56)
When people were messaging me early on saying like, how's powering going? I was like, this thing's a bag of dicks.
Daniel Paronetto (48:01)
Hahaha
Man, I had so much fun watching your stuff, because I was just laughing. And I think everybody kind of just wanted to see someone who was really good at downwinding eat it. And you were that person.
Dave West (48:04)
And it was me, it wasn't... Well...
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and this is what bothers me is β like, so James Casey in the background, he struggled at the beginning, but he doesn't share it. And I was like, and like Josh Koo, he's struggling. Lots of people struggle. And this is what I was like, this is my gripe with the industry is people struggle in quiet and then they just suddenly emerge. And I could have done that. Like I you know, I sort of wish I had now.
Daniel Paronetto (48:24)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (48:44)
but it'd be less entertaining. you know, people, they work on it quietly in the background and then suddenly they can paralleling. It's like, tell us what your first session was like, you know, like James didn't get up in his first session.
Daniel Paronetto (48:44)
No, I think you did well,
Yeah. I think there's huge value.
Yeah. Like, and I think he was the same. had the 1540 on. He started on enormous stuff. Yeah.
Dave West (49:04)
Hmm. And he went out in too light a wind,
you know, like he and he, you know, he has to learn and we all have to go through. And I think there's value in sharing those struggles. for like, obviously, I see myself as β education content creator, but I would really start to move towards like, just entertainment. That's what I prefer to be. It's like, I'd rather just make people laugh. Yeah, like I just
Daniel Paronetto (49:29)
Yeah, suits your personality, I reckon.
Dave West (49:33)
There's a lot of seriousness in this industry. I'm like, that's why, you know, like, I like things like generic foiling podcasts, like we've got to start laughing at ourselves more. And like, my favorite clip from James Casey is him getting cleaned up on the rocks. Have you seen that? Man, it came back like two weeks ago. That is the most entertaining thing that's happened in foiling in two years. And, and like,
Daniel Paronetto (49:39)
Yeah.
That's okay came back. Yeah, I came back. He had a comeback. I know it's
Leh.
Dave West (50:00)
And I just think like that's the stuff that we all really appreciate. So people took it so seriously that I was like, cause I wasn't curating my experience. I was brutally honest and it was on the day. Like I had finished a session, I was angry. I was like, fuck this sport. And it's like, if people don't follow the arc of the story, well then they'll just think I'm being an asshole towards powering.
Daniel Paronetto (50:11)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dave West (50:27)
But if you watch the second one, then you watch the third one, you're like, yeah, it's fine. It all worked out. But if...
Daniel Paronetto (50:27)
Yeah.
Nah, I think it was super
helpful, I appreciate that. Because man, it's really hard for someone in your position that has some reputation to be held, and just putting it out there and showing it how it is. I think it's massive, man. I loved it.
Dave West (50:49)
What,
and it does like, and I'll give you an example. Let me just look this out because I think this gives you an idea of like people within the industry. We're all looking at each other, right? And β James, James, this is why I'm picking on James. He deserves it. James messaged me. He's like, he's like, you're, he's like, you're a slow learner. It's why, it's why you're so relatable and it's your superpower. I was like, fuck you, bro.
Daniel Paronetto (51:00)
Mm.
Yeah.
James he's good. He's good. I didn't I saw him the I met him for the first time in Torquay I was doing like I was just subsurfing and then I see this thing coming in the horizon like one of the boys is coming in and then James I recognized was him and then he just started to do these freaking 360s on the waves I'm like, my god, he was up for like 50 minutes paddling around That's the first time I saw the guy. I'm like, yeah, okay. It's real. He's good
Dave West (51:22)
So.
yeah.
Do
you get to do much prone surfing? Like do the bay bumps ever allow you to? Or is it all talky?
Daniel Paronetto (51:54)
Not really. There's yeah, look there.
No, mainly Torquay, but there are spots here in the Bay. If you go to Frankston where like it's Western Lee suit, like an onshore and it's pumping it's 25, 30 knots. Yeah. You can walk out to the pier, which is cool. So you'd have to paddle out. You can just jump off the pier and then you can prone into a bump and then you could just pump around for a bit. Yeah. No people do that when it's really honking Western Lee. Hey dude, let's talk a little bit about your pro model.
Dave West (52:16)
yeah. Sweet.
Daniel Paronetto (52:25)
because I was looking for a parawing specific board for a long time. Talking to Amos, hey man, I wanna do this. Like where's the parawing board? And then β you launched the Cypher model, which is kind of like a entry level downwind board. Is that how you're calling it? Yep. And then from that concept,
Dave West (52:46)
Yep, yep, very much so.
Daniel Paronetto (52:52)
You guys kind of downscaled it to a light wind wing board or parawinging board. Tell us about that whole experience with Amos and creating the Cypher. Cause I really love the concept behind that board.
Dave West (53:05)
Yeah, so it was sort of like a bit of a, β I wanted to be a bit of an antithesis to the way every board model was heading in the industry. And I think a lot of industries have done this where they send all, β everything becomes a pro model. I like surfboards became 25 liters and people were trying to learn a surf on boards that were too small for them. And β I was like, I know that this is the wrong direction for most people coming into the sport.
Daniel Paronetto (53:21)
Mm.
Dave West (53:35)
when you're coming into this sport, you absolutely need a board that makes things easier. And the two variables around that were length and volume, obviously, but also rocker, bottom shape. And so, you know, there was all these displacement or β planing hole and it doesn't matter how fast your board is if you can't stand on it.
Daniel Paronetto (53:57)
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (54:02)
And that was sort of the basis that I wanted to build the Cypher from, which was, let's just make this sport more accessible by making the key piece of gear, stand on the ball. β And so, yeah, it was just born from that. Like we wanted something. So obviously Amos has the bullet, which is a more advanced shape. And I wanted something that really was like counter to that as well for people coming into the sport.
Daniel Paronetto (54:14)
Hmm.
Dave West (54:29)
Now, and the interesting thing about a board that's easy to paddle up and easy to stand on is as you progress through your journey and you get on smaller and smaller foils, it's now easy to stand on and easy to paddle up. So all my fastest times, bar one, have been on the Syfy because it was, I was able to use a 680R, whereas on my Bullet, I had an 810 Bullet.
Daniel Paronetto (54:49)
That's interesting.
Dave West (54:56)
and I couldn't stand on it because obviously you lose stability the smaller your foil gets. And a lot of people don't think about that. Like a big foil gives a lot of stability. And then, β yeah, I had started winging more and then I had started parawinging. And I just went like, actually this shape, it will just translate so well to a wing board. so Amos and I talked about it and we looked at
Daniel Paronetto (55:03)
Yeah, into the water, it's kind of, yeah. How long did it take for you guys to get to like the shape that you wanted?
Dave West (55:25)
how we could change things a little bit. And that whole feeling of like β a thin board was still really important to me. β It's definitely like, it's not a beginner shape or it's not a intermediate. It's sort of like for anybody, the wing version of the cypher. β But it was about maintaining some waterline. Cause I, I've lost your audio. Hey, Raoul.
Daniel Paronetto (55:38)
Mmm.
Yeah. Why do you think the width is so important? Sorry.
Can you hear me?
Dave West (55:52)
Hello? β
Daniel Paronetto (55:54)
I can hear you.
Dave West (55:55)
No. β hold on.
Daniel Paronetto (56:01)
cables. Yeah, cables are good. Maybe keep the cables in. there he is. He's waffling along about this Cypher. I'm done with it, mate. Let's move on. No, just kidding. No, I was going to ask why, because you were saying when you were downscaling it for parawinging and winging, you wanted to keep a thin board, not to make it too wide. Why is that important for you β for winging or parawinging?
Dave West (56:03)
Hello.
Sorry.
What are you talking about? What did you say?
I really like wing boards that are easy to get up because I don't like, essentially my elbows suck and I don't want to be luffing heaps. And because I surf the most, you do fall. Like it's not like I just mow the lawn. But also you get a nice connected feel to your boards. And I learned this from Sop Downwind, like I don't like boards that are super thick. It does dull the feeling of the foil.
Daniel Paronetto (56:53)
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (56:57)
But it also translates to a board that generally will go faster through the water, which I very quickly learned for parawinging makes a really big difference. So you obviously don't wanna go too wide in width, but you don't wanna go too narrow that then it becomes really thick and chunky. And I think that was one of my complaints with the Sultan wing was mine was like six inches thick to be 95 liters.
Daniel Paronetto (57:20)
Yeah, I still use it.
And, and, and I think I, so I spoke with Keith Teboul about parawinging shapes and everything. And his view is that a parawinging board needs to be forgiving. And the thicker the board, when it's 25 knots and you kind of going crosswind, you got swell bumping into you and it just knocks you out of the board, especially if you have a narrow board. So his idea, and this is why I changed my specs when I got your board.
He went with a little bit of a wider shape to keep the sidewall very thin. So when chop comes over, it just kind of goes over the board and it's, it doesn't track as much, which is also good because the pair wing is taking you like left and right and it's a little bit erratic. So you want a board that can kind of absorb that and not just go this way. And if the pair wings going that way, you're in the water. So I really feel you guys nailed the, β the design.
Dave West (58:13)
Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (58:18)
the sizes it comes in as well. really like the sizes.
Dave West (58:21)
β
What dimensions did you go out of curiosity?
Daniel Paronetto (58:25)
So I went with a custom one just because I, um, I'm annoying that way. Um, but I got a F I got a five, eight by 20 by 65 liters and it came around, I think for.
Dave West (58:31)
Me too, don't worry.
Yeah, sweet. Yeah, because I got us and you're
what 75 kilos, 80 kilos.
Daniel Paronetto (58:43)
No,
I'm 82, maybe 85 with all the gear with wetsuit and stuff.
But I went 65 liters because I have a Sultan Wing 85 liter.
Dave West (58:55)
Oh, okay. Yep. Yeah. Cause I've got a 75 litre, went the Cypher, yeah, 75 litre at 6, 6.0 though. So I have compensated with a bit of a more water line to have less volume.
Daniel Paronetto (58:56)
So I'll keep that.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, worth reading out the, um, the specs here. have them open. the Cypher comes this. These are the specs on the website, but you could obviously order a custom one. come in a five, six by 19 and a half, 50 liter sick board. You can do everything with that board. That's a cool board. Five 11 by 20 and a quarter, 65 liters. Um, and six, four by 21, 80 liters. And for a light.
Dave West (59:12)
So.
Daniel Paronetto (59:39)
wind or heavier guy, this is a perfect parawinging board, man. That's awesome.
Dave West (59:44)
Yeah, I actually would like a 6.4, but I have so many boards at the moment. I don't actually have space for it. Cause I think this 6.4 is probably what I'd always use. So, whereas now I've got, yeah, I've got a 7.4 Cypher, which is 110 liters, which is my surf sub, which I actually use the most with the Parawing. And then I've got now the 75 liter, but for the 75 liter, I obviously need some pretty good wind. So I've barely used the 75.
Daniel Paronetto (59:50)
Yeah.
You'd be on this all the time.
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Dave West (1:00:14)
And so I'm on the Cypher 7-4 the most. But that 6-4 would probably sit right in the middle where I would probably be able to use it in most conditions.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:26)
Especially now that you're ripped. Nice and lean.
Dave West (1:00:29)
That's right.
It'd be interesting to see. Man, pumping on this like the 850S the other day just in the surf, I was like, holy shit, this thing's so much easier to pump now. So it's...
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:40)
It moves. That
that's such a good foil. I love that 850. And it still amazed me that that was the first foil that code came out with. It's like.
Dave West (1:00:48)
man, it's
a beast of a foil like does everything literally does everything. Yeah, so.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:51)
and Creel.
β
Dave, let's get into a little debate here, mate, cause you posted a video that I didn't like that said that paddle was king.
Dave West (1:01:00)
Yes.
Hahaha. Paddle is king. Paddle is king.
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:04)
Why is paddling
king, my friend? And why not parawinging as king?
Dave West (1:01:09)
So I think the very premise that people take a paddle with them as a safety precaution and not the other way around. there's some people do do it the other way around. But the fact that the paddle is the safety precaution says everything to me that I need, which is, and you do down winning long enough, shit's gonna happen. Like this sport is not.
Safe per se. You know, like, well, I've had the wind turn the opposite direction on me. I've had β the wind completely die. I've had new wind direction start. Everything and anything can happen. And there's two things that I think give me peace of mind. One is being on a long board to belly paddle. And I think that's probably the big one that I actually, it's not even about the parawing. It's about the board that I have to use.
in order to participate. so, belly paddling for two kilometres on a six foot board is a totally different experience to a eight foot board. And that's probably where I land when I think about what has the most utility in the most settings. And that's why for me, I would still be like, if you can learn to paddle, that's what you should do.
because the wind dies, it doesn't matter. If everything goes to shit, you've at least got a big board that you can sit on and survive on. like paddles break, absolutely. And I'm sure people are gonna lose their power wings. The wind's gonna die. Like shit is gonna happen in both categories. But it's really that board that I think ends up being the safety variable. Unless you lose your board and then you're fucked entirely.
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:47)
Mmm.
But
yeah, well then you just quote, but I'll tell you what, like I, when I go out in this, like in, if I go to Torquay, for example, and I'm doing a, β a run in open ocean, I will take my downwind board. I will still take my downwind board, but I'll take the parawing because I can get up on a much smaller foil on a parawing that I can on the paddle. And I think it would take me for another year.
Dave West (1:03:07)
No.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:32)
for me to like in just doing just paddling to be able to get up on an 850 or 720. I just ride the S series. So.
Dave West (1:03:38)
Yeah. Well,
and because I've done quite a few downwind runs on a four wheel drive, I know, and I don't use the motor when I four drive downwind. So I only get to pump and it is interesting how much slower I feel I go when I don't have a paddle. Like I actually literally go slower because β like paddle pumping is really handy, especially in big conditions.
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:02)
What do mean?
Dave West (1:04:08)
when you're chasing a big bump. And if you don't get it, you're caught in no man's land. And so there's two reasons I think a paddle is such a useful tool is one, turning. you know, like Jared Snow put up a clip the other day and he's leaning on his paddle and he's doing the turn. And you can't do that turn without leaning on a paddle. But then the second is then when you wanna go fast. I love having a paddle to surf. I actually think it's so, I think it looks cool too.
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:30)
Hmm.
Dave West (1:04:38)
β It's not to say that you couldn't do better surfing on a smaller board. I think that's probably true. β Like McFlowy is the best representative of what powering should be. Like just ripping turns on a small board and that's very attractive, but that is so specific to Hood River and Bay Bums, good Bay Bums. And so I think as a what...
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:46)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (1:05:08)
what across the board is the most useful tool. I still think the paddle takes the cake in that regard. But which is harder? Paddle by a long shot. So what's your, what do you think?
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:18)
Hmm. I,
well, I'm going to rip into you a little bit because I disagree with a lot of the stuff you say, but, for me, the, the, the attraction of the parawing is like the first thing that got me and said, holy shit, this is a game changer is really the ability for you to do a prone downwinder, right? Something that's reserved for like one a percent, 1 % of the riders out there that can like.
Jump off a rock or chip into a wave and then just ride, you know, going downwind and not falling. Right. There's probably 20 people in the world that could do that properly. for me, that was really farfetched. I would never be able to do that, but I was able to get up on a very small board pretty quickly. β and now moving on to sinker boards, it's even better. And the foils that I'm able to ride with the parawing I can't really paddle up and.
Like I can have, I think the ones that I was really comfortable with paddling up was the 980. That was super easy. I was going out on the 850, but then if I have to paddle up like 10 times in a run, cause I'm pushing and I'm trying turns and I'm falling, then my 11th one might be really shit and it might take me 20 minutes to get up. So for me, the parawing was like, man, I can be small boards, small foil. one, unbeatable man, going down one of those conditions. The second thing that.
Dave West (1:06:34)
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:42)
For me really attracted, β got me attracted to powering is that I can downwind when the conditions for downwinding are not great for the paddle. So onshore conditions or let's say cross onshore because going upwind and going downwind, don't do long runs upwind because they suck going upwind is boring and it, it takes a lot of your energy as well. So for me, if it's cross on I can.
Dave West (1:07:03)
Yeah, shit.
Daniel Paronetto (1:07:10)
Get out and just ride four or five kilometers into the bay, get a perfect angle. And some of the boys are doing that. They take the parawing out, they have a paddle, they put the pad, the parawing away, and then they have the right angle. And then they'll just get up on the paddle and do their runs on the paddle. β so for me, riding conditions, it allows me to go out and have a downwind experience, be it upwind, downwind, or just, you know, getting better angles, β in any conditions. And it saves time, man. I'm done with shuttling.
I'm so done with shuttling, having to wait for people or just linking up and who's available and beyond the chat groups and who's there and all that stuff. for me, if I have an hour, you know, I'll go out, I'll have a session on the best performing area in the Bay. Do laps around there, really push my turns and just get a lot out of it. So no gear damage in cars, which happens, unfortunately, sometimes, you know, fools get chipped and all that stuff.
Dave West (1:07:50)
Yeah.
Yeah. And to that point, a variable that doesn't get talked about enough about enjoying downwind is having a good shuttle crew. Like I have a good crew, like we enjoy talking to each other, we enjoy hanging out with each other because you're stuck in the car for an hour or whatever it's going to be. β That is a variable that people... Yeah, yeah, that's a variable that people don't talk about.
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:09)
everybody's just piling on top.
β dude, 100%.
you need a bit of banter.
Dave West (1:08:37)
that I actually, I underestimate when I've, when I learned those two guys or three guys have been busy and I have to shuttle with other people, it's just a different experience. β And so it really is dependent on the crew that you have and getting a good crew. So I can see, I'll give you that point, that point's yours, you can take that.
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:46)
Yeah, I know you mean.
So just the time saving. Go for it.
Dave West (1:09:04)
sorry, my headphones are doing funky shit again. Yep, you're back. So, and my counter to not shuttling is the fun time on water variable. it is, if you have a good crew, then I will still shuttle even if I was a para winger solely because, partly because like I said earlier on, our coastline is suited to it. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:07)
Can you hear me?
Alright.
Dave West (1:09:33)
And β I don't think I'd go out that often if no, that's not true. If living here, not I was going to say, because if I lived where you are, I would do a 5k run. But if I live here, I will never do a 5k run. Because I'd rather I'd rather catch the bus and go back up wind. So
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:41)
Don't lie now. Stop lying.
Some boys are doing the train
run.
Dave West (1:10:01)
Yeah, well, I can see the appeal to that. β One that goes in your favor is travel. Man, traveling with a downwind board is... β And the idea, like, because I'm doing a Tassie trip soon, the idea of taking, I was going to take a foil drive and I was going to take two Parawings and my wing Cypher, six foot board bag, no issues, easy to carry in the airport. I'm very much in support of that.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:08)
Mm-hmm.
Here you
Dave West (1:10:31)
because I hate traveling with my support. Why is this thing being weird? So I'll raise a point and give you that point. I'll lobby that one.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:32)
Mm-hmm.
I can hear you.
The other one is you can save a lot of money with the parawing. Those downwind boards are expensive, man. And then you have to buy a paddle. That's a three grand operation right there at least. And a parawing, even though they are expensive for what they are, in my opinion, it's a grand, you know?
Dave West (1:10:55)
Hmm.
Yeah, I agree.
So yes, I think there's two things. I'm annoyed that Parawings have gone up in price so quickly, especially like the $1,500 range. The markup on those is incredible. Like we all know that. I sort of, think kudos to North for bringing it out at like 850. And I think
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:16)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it
also doesn't go upwind, but you're getting half a pairling with that.
Dave West (1:11:32)
okay. I didn't know that. β I sort of...
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:34)
It's not that bad.
just inches upwind. It's a little bit tough to go upwind with that one.
Dave West (1:11:41)
Yeah, but I think β I wish these brands would like, it's not the same as buying a wing. And we, you will, you will want to, β I think if they were more around the $800 mark, $900 mark, more people would be like, okay, I'll just buy one and then I'll play around and then I'll end up buying a second one. And so you would end up with a two grand sale rather than just one $1,500 sale. And I sort of wish that they would look at it that way.
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:49)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, look, I hear that.
I agree that they are expensive for the amount of gear you get and for what it is.
Dave West (1:12:11)
And so
Yeah, like paddles are expensive. So paddle and a subboard, you're to be looking at, you know, four grand, right? So that's the downwind separate to the foils. But I think where para wing catches up in price and it ends up about the same is they have such a short wind range that you need to, and then you need, I think you need a more specific wing board than your five foot short fat and stubby wing board. That's not ideal, just like
Daniel Paronetto (1:12:24)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (1:12:46)
a seven foot board, sub board that you have is not ideal to suck down wind.
Daniel Paronetto (1:12:50)
Yeah.
I'm thinking like, if you want to get into it and you have a wing board, you can start on it. It's not ideal. A lot of wingers have a mid length these days, which could be really nice to start. And then if you're just going downwind and you want to get into downwind. I feel as a winger, man, your progression is going to be a lot quicker on the parawing than learning to paddle, going through everything that you need to do with all that.
Dave West (1:13:01)
Mmm, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:17)
The other thing that I think you will not agree with is that I think a parawing will make you a better downwinder because you don't have that cheat code of the little paddle pump. And a lot of people get into that horrible, horrible vice of just downwinding and doing this for the whole downwinder, just keeping that paddle going. And if you.
kind of have that security blanket of having a paddle, I think you will in your brain learn a little bit slower than someone that has nothing. Like if you're going downwind with a parawing, you got nothing. You need to really generate speed with the bumps and you need to get proficient with that quickly. That's how you downwind with a parawing. You turn and you build speed that way. You get into that much quicker than you do with the paddle because the paddle you kind of...
tend to go straight and then you do a couple of paddle pumps and then you're trying to go up and over and you know, we hope you make it. And I think it'll over time create better downwinders.
Dave West (1:14:26)
β I think it's hard because the exhaustion level that people experience when they don't know how to read bumps is significant because they're not effective at pumping because they're pumping uphill and all those sort of things. And so having something to keep you up on foil for longer, even if they're making the wrong choices, I think is still like a net positive.
in terms of them experiencing what it's like to downwind. And it is, I don't think it's, it's hard because of the level I'm at now. Like when I'm paddle pumping, it's because I'm choosing to, to go faster. So there's like this, there's a precipice that you reach where like, I can go a slow, I can do a three minute 30 kilometer if I want, but I have to turn nonstop. And that's type of downwinding. And then there's racing.
Daniel Paronetto (1:15:20)
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (1:15:26)
And a paddle is nothing but beneficial in racing. It's absolutely beneficial. And so I think it's still like, doesn't, you need to race some, like you need to chase things sometimes and pumping isn't always the easiest choice unless you're quite fit. So like having just done the Barcelona race where I was trying to go fast.
Daniel Paronetto (1:15:30)
You need it. Yeah, absolutely needed.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (1:15:56)
on only a four wheel drive, so no paddle. Like, man, it's so much more demanding. Because you've already experienced this, there's the muscles that you use when you're paddle pumping, and then there's the muscles you use when you only pump, and they are different. There's like a difference in where it loads your body. And I think just teaching people to do both is probably more beneficial than not having the paddle. So I will always tell people like,
Daniel Paronetto (1:16:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (1:16:26)
have your paddle ready because it saves you. Like if you breach and you get that unbalance, you can throw your paddle out and sort of catch yourself and keep going. β But people need every bit of help to stay on foil when they're learning the very early stages of downwinding. Now, absolutely people should break that habit as they get better. But I do think that sort of naturally happens because, you know, it just happens over time, but...
Daniel Paronetto (1:16:31)
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (1:16:57)
Paddle pumping is such an effective tool. I think more so in ocean conditions. In a bay bum, I wouldn't need a paddle, no way. β But in ocean conditions, a paddle is like really important. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:03)
Hmm.
Yeah, I see. and I catch myself sometimes, β in no man's land, like you said, and I take, I noticed that I take a little bit longer to completely stow the parawing when I'm out in Torquay. Like I'll keep it in my hand. I'll fold it. I'll get it ready, but I still have it in my hand because I normally in the bay bumps here, 20 seconds into the run, I can feel the energy. can feel the speed. know where I'm at. And if I go down.
Dave West (1:17:39)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:40)
Torquay, need a few groundswells to come through to fully understand the conditions. So I will ride with the parawing in my hand for probably a couple of minutes, like two, three minutes. And then like, I'll do my first K with it. And I'm like, all right, cool. I'm going to stash. I'm going to stow and then I'll put it away. β and that's what I tell people that are learning how to downwind with the parawing is, β just like the paddle, you have an assistance right in your hand. So once you, know,
Dave West (1:17:57)
Yeah,
Daniel Paronetto (1:18:10)
Depower everything, hold the parawing in one hand, the bar and lines on the other one, like stretch it out and just ride it. Ride it like that. If you need it, boom, it's your cheat, like little paddle pump. Bring it out, stay on foil, grab the next one and then pull it back in, which will get you that repetition of those movements. It's helpful for parawinging as well, but it lets you stay on foil because I agree with what you said, like staying on foil.
Is super important and trying to link and getting it wrong and still being able to continue and then say, I understood what I did wrong there. Let's not do that again. And then trying again. And then you're like, Oh, I've done it again, but you're still on foil. We're still practicing the sport and you don't touch down and you don't have to, you know, eat shit for 20 minutes.
Dave West (1:18:44)
Yeah.
because I would compare the benefit, like I would say more so the damage is done when wingers take their wings in downwind and they have it above their head because they don't realize how much of an assist that actually is. So I would, yeah, it's.
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:11)
It is even just holding it like
with that, gives you another 20%.
Dave West (1:19:15)
Yeah, it's a massive assist. And that puts those people into a false sense of security. And then they, they get on a say a parawing, and they're like, holy shit, I don't know how to downwind. And it's because they don't. And like, yeah, they don't realize how much more input is required to actually stay on foil to downwind effectively. So I love that the parawing is going to force so many wingers to be like, β crap, I need to get better at this.
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:26)
Yeah, they don't. They don't yet,
Mmm.
Dave West (1:19:44)
And you know, because absolutely like β paddling is, it's a different, like you get less assistance when you're parawing for sure, but you don't have to deal with the heart rate spike at the very beginning that the paddle up guy does. β And so I do think it's gonna accelerate people's learning, but I still think the paddle is gonna be a tool that will make you a better downwinder in the longterm in sense of like,
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:58)
Mm-hmm. Right, you're
Dave West (1:20:13)
when you want to start going longer and faster, it does start. And even like an example is so many runs have a flat finish and like in a wind shadow. So say the Sydney race that we just did, not just did, it was in January, β the whole like kilometer in, we had a headwind. Everyone was paddle pumping. And so if you were on a parawing, firstly, you wouldn't have
Daniel Paronetto (1:20:24)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (1:20:42)
been able to use the parawing to get back in. And secondly, β nobody could have pumped that. It was brutal. β And so there's all these variables. And I have to say, I'm obviously always coming from this perspective of like the upper level. I'm not, know, like let's say I'm in the top 200 of downwinders. Like that's where I come from when I think about the paddle as well. So.
Daniel Paronetto (1:21:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (1:21:11)
There are so many variables.
Daniel Paronetto (1:21:11)
Do you,
do you feel, and I don't know where these sports are going to go, but I have a feeling that like the paddle will bring people that are more into the race scene and the parawinging will kind of be more attractive for the, for the people that want to more like just surf and have like more of a carby session downwind and maybe in shorter runs. Like you were mentioning before.
Dave West (1:21:26)
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (1:21:39)
because it is more enjoyable to do that with smaller boards, smaller foils.
Dave West (1:21:42)
for sure, for sure.
I think I've been surprised at how many wingers haven't gotten into downwinding. So even like wing assisted downwinders, it's been quite interesting that there's none, like especially where I live, nobody does actual downwind runs. They do the short run. They'll do the 500 meters out and the 500 meters in. And so I think there'll be this distinction between, you know,
Daniel Paronetto (1:21:50)
Yeah, I agree.
Mmm.
Dave West (1:22:10)
longer distance downwind is, they will all still be mainly sup, I think. That's probably like the majority. But then the people that sort of dabble, they're gonna be on the parawings because that's a way better tool to enjoy that 500 meter run back in absolutely than having a stupid wing flapping behind you. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:22:14)
Hmm.
Yeah. I,
and I think those people are also the kind of person that maybe their time poor, they want to park their car, have a session and go, you know, and yeah.
Dave West (1:22:38)
Yeah, an hour there, one and done.
Yeah, because sub down winning is a limited sport to time and place. Like it's not an easy sport to get good at. If you have like a nine to five job, it's almost impossible. β And so I totally, there is a lot of limitations with sub down wind. There's no doubt about that. I still think it's like the ultimate in terms of freedom.
Daniel Paronetto (1:22:46)
Hmm.
Dave West (1:23:07)
if all conditions, but to get there, I essentially didn't work for two years and that's what allowed me to get there. And everyone that I downwind with is either self-employed, so they have to control their own schedule or they're semi-retired, you know, or they're surgeons and they work two days a week. Yeah, exactly. And so, powering is a much more accessible option for...
Daniel Paronetto (1:23:20)
Hmm.
Yep.
and that's all they need for the month. Good.
Dave West (1:23:34)
Absolutely the majority of people. I just would love to see more wingers get on a parawing and actually start doing the longer runs. Because there's a type of satisfaction that you get from that, that you don't get from the in and outs. And there's a new challenge. And I think there's always this issue where we reach a level of ability in a certain thing and people just don't progress after that. And for anybody who wings and starts to parawing, I'd encourage people to like go try a 15k run.
Daniel Paronetto (1:23:37)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (1:24:03)
it develops a whole new set of skills and perspectives that you can't otherwise get. So.
Daniel Paronetto (1:24:03)
Mm-hmm.
The one, yeah, the one that I think the paddle has on the parawing and we'll always have, I think is it's those longer runs. And I think you're right because I, I haven't felt anything that compares to like, and I'm talking maybe like 20, 30 plus K runs, like the mental state that you get in and the connection with the elements that you get in and the satisfaction of finishing a run like that.
with without falling for the first time. The first time you ace a run like that, you're like, man, you're invincible. Invincible. Yeah.
Dave West (1:24:46)
Amazing.
Like, like, β and this is my final, this is my final point. Because, because I'm a content creator, and I film so much, I always have a fucking poll anyway. So
Daniel Paronetto (1:25:00)
Yeah, so you have to get
out on the parawing and then get a stick out then you're like well you might as well get a paddle
Dave West (1:25:04)
Exactly.
And a paddle is a really good length to get like the whole thing. Because during the Barcelona race, it was quite funny because I was there working with four wheel drive and I had my selfie pole and there was a few times I grabbed the pole and tried to paddle. β So like all this, like all the parawing sessions I've done so far, I've had a freaking thing in there that I'm pulling out and I'm holding a pole anyway.
Daniel Paronetto (1:25:09)
Hmm.
little paddle pump you're like shit that is muscle memory for you
Dave West (1:25:34)
So for me, it's not even a hands-free experience. So that's very unique to me.
Daniel Paronetto (1:25:37)
that's good, man.
Where do you think this power thing, this parawing thing will end up? What do feel like will happen like in the next couple of years with it?
Dave West (1:25:48)
think the when they solve the range, the wind range problem, it's going to open up the sport massively. So I think there's a big influx now. And then you I think there's going to be like a second wave. And there's a lot of people on the sidelines waiting for x y zed to be solved with power wings. And you know, all credit to the companies that are trying to keep up with the market. It's not easy. β And I think
customers being demanding is gonna be good in the sense that rather than it being, you know, first generation, second generation, third generation, now the fourth generation is great. I think the next generation is gonna blow the first out of the water, which is tricky for, you know, if you're a shop holding inventory. So I really feel for that, but also, you know, that's business, you know, the market drives demand.
Daniel Paronetto (1:26:27)
Mm.
Tell me
Dave West (1:26:47)
β I think for me personally, a wing that is going to have a a β parawing that's going to have a better low range is going to be, is going to open up the sport for me. And I'm not a unique case. I'm on the heavier side, pretty light now. β But also just live in a place that isn't particularly windy. β That is going to open a whole new category of people that will get into parawing. But
Look, Maui, you can't deny that Maui leads the way. And I watched that, you know, JD Follow Cam, his YouTube channel, everyone's on a Parawing. So I think that, and they're all doing ins and outs, you know, I can see, I actually want to take a Parawing set up to Hawaii, but I just don't have the room.
Daniel Paronetto (1:27:18)
yeah.
Pretty much.
You don't have the room for a parawing.
Dave West (1:27:38)
No, because you got a 10 foot board bag, which already weighs 30 kilos. And then I've got my foils. And so I'd have to buy a whole nother. It'd cost me like 350 bucks. So I'm like,
Daniel Paronetto (1:27:41)
Mm.
man, one more DJ gig and you're there. You're good. Deep. Dude, I, I think what you said about, wingers getting into parawinging, think people cap on their level in the sport and they keep doing that sport. And then it all, it becomes a little bit stale. And I think if you're a winger now that does.
Dave West (1:27:52)
That's my alley right what are you talking about?
Daniel Paronetto (1:28:19)
Upwinds and you flag your wing and you do your little runs downwind and you're not thinking about doing a backflip or anything Like that anytime soon. I think the parawinging will give you a better experience in that regard You'll have more fun with it. It'll give you a new challenge and hopefully it'll open you up to once you experience those short runs to shore Maybe you'll be like maybe I want to connect and maybe I want to do a kilometer two kilometers And if you get into downwinding, I think everybody who does
Dave West (1:28:30)
Yeah, I agree.
Daniel Paronetto (1:28:47)
says this, it's the best thing ever. It's the best. There's nothing that compares to it.
Dave West (1:28:50)
Yeah, absolutely.
No, and I'll never be too crowded. Like, and you know, I'm already experiencing that with prone foiling, like, it's just so hard to find. And even winging, you know, it's busy. So I think downwind is always going to be the it's the backcountry skiing of snowboarding. It's way cooler than skiing β of foiling and anything that's going to give people a road in is
Daniel Paronetto (1:28:55)
Mmm.
Dave West (1:29:19)
is something so worth doing. Where I don't see in this, don't know if I think you might agree with this is I don't think it's gonna replace full wave writing, like short, know, short and sharp stuff because of that, get it in, get it out type thing for a lot of people.
Daniel Paronetto (1:29:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's tough, man. Like wave riding in the parawing is probably the hardest thing to do with it at the moment. And I think, like you said, the gear is going to get better as well, where I think, and, and BRM's done this. Yeah. BRM like leapfrog the industry again and launched three different models for three different specific, β use cases. once you have a parawing that you can stow quickly and redeploy, minimize tangles, all that stuff, wave riding will get better, but.
Dave West (1:29:48)
More specific to, yeah. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:30:07)
I still have a soft spot for proning, man. There's nothing cooler than going out there. Like the simplicity of it, getting a wave, pumping out, doing like, you know, a couple, couple of waves and that's hard. That's another one that's freaking hard, man. β so props to that. think it, the thing that parawing really is attracted is that like, it allows you to have these experiences in these sports that are so hard to become proficient in.
Dave West (1:30:21)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:30:34)
So hard to get good at downwinding. It's so hard to get good at proning. But you could serve a couple waves on a parawing. You can start learning how to do downwinders on a parawing. And I think it just opens up. It's a tool. It's another tool in your tool bag to have in your quiver. when it's right, the day's perfect for it. It's pretty much unbeatable.
Dave West (1:30:48)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I still, β I would love to be a part of, you know, there being two minute videos on YouTube that somebody can get a parawing and watch eight two minute videos and know the fundamentals, you know, because I think that's, that's sort of what I've been trying to work on, but I'm distracted by Hawaii now. β And no wind, so I can't even film. But β that's sort of like, I think that's just going to help people like
Daniel Paronetto (1:31:11)
Mmm.
Dave West (1:31:26)
And there is videos, you've got videos up, Steve's got videos, Cynthia's got videos. β But that real like, I'm a shocker, like I want a one minute video. That's me. I'm like, give it to me simply.
Daniel Paronetto (1:31:38)
Yeah, I was so lazy with those videos.
I had no idea like if people were even gonna watch it. So I'm like, I'm not gonna like spend a lot of time with editing. I just put like a 30 minute unedited version of me eating shit out there. So you will learn, yeah, I probably should edit those and do a little series.
Dave West (1:31:50)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well,
and if you should do it, because you guys get good subtleties now, is like just literally like two minutes, how to tack, how to jive, that's it, nothing else. Because like, you know, we're all information whores these days. And yeah, I would love to get those out, but it's just, you can't do everything. I've got so many things on the go at the moment. So it's tricky.
Daniel Paronetto (1:32:23)
Yeah. And I think everybody's
super focused on the races and I spoke with a few guys as well. They're like, man, I'm really keen on the parawing right now, but honestly, I'm just focusing on, on Hawaii. And I think after July when still summer in the Northern hemisphere, I think parawing, would just blow up and Hood River will be ridiculous, man. I've been talking to so many people. Everyone will be on a parawing.
Dave West (1:32:34)
Yeah.
man.
Yeah, and I'd be on a parawing at Hood River. Like there's no doubt. Like, and that's, you know, Hood River and places like that. Even like that video I put up recently of Povos, which is our little Hood River. Like the next time I go, I'm planning to just parawing β because of how unique that's, how surfy that place is. And I think this is, this is what I'll finish on. The more surfy your bumps are going in the right direction,
Daniel Paronetto (1:32:50)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dave West (1:33:16)
the more likely you are to para wing and have the best time. is in, so a bay bumps that you can actually go down and surf, whereas we're always cutting, always cutting. So you never get to surf anyway. And even if you took a para wing, you'd cut, you'd go in for a kilometer and then you'd be too close to shore. You have to tack back out anyway. β So yeah, the more like Hood River it is, the better.
Daniel Paronetto (1:33:28)
Yeah.
No doubt. Let's end it on that Dave. β thanks for coming in, man. Thanks for all the content you put out. I think it's awesome that you, went through that, β experience of just showing people how it is and good, good, brave move from you. And a lot of people resonated with that video, man. You know, the comments, everybody was like, thanks for putting it out. β so keep doing what you're doing, bro. And, β we'll catch you next time.
Dave West (1:33:46)
So.
Sorry man.
Yeah.
Appreciate it.
Woo! Parallying!
