Speaker 1 (00:00)
The man himself, Greg Drexler. Having you here, I think is a great opportunity for us just to talk a little bit about that history.
Speaker 2 (00:08)
rounds and rounds and rounds of prototypes and not getting anywhere near satisfied. Thinking out of the box just was getting crazier and crazier. The first prototype that I'll say was really, so no harness, no belt, no harness lines, just that thing. And that actually was a pretty legitimate starting point. The light went immediately on, like this is my answer for riding waves. When we got rid of the inflated leading edge and I was like, okay, actually we can put this thing away, like, nope.
How was that not the goal from the beginning? Questioning old habits. Do I need a leash with this thing? Let me try. Let me let this thing go. Do I need that now? How did I not see that? Now it's totally possible. I'm super powered up. So tiny boards are a thing now. Where it goes from there, how people will tap into that is going to be super fun to watch this year. Why are
Speaker 1 (00:55)
are
you steering away from that and why are you so stubborn?
Speaker 2 (00:58)
You're
right, I can absolutely be stubborn.
Speaker 1 (01:01)
you not enjoying when you're out there like, I wanna fix this. What do you think is coming next?
Speaker 2 (01:05)
right now everything.
The coolest thing people can do right now is
Speaker 1 (01:12)
Hopefully we can catch up again when you launch your V3s in two or three weeks time. You know, it's not gonna be too long. Knowing you, you're gonna come up with something pretty quick.
Daniel Paronetto (01:33)
welcome to the LabRat For the podcast. My name is Dan and today we have the man himself, Greg Drexler. Greg, it's an absolute honor mate to have you on the podcast. What you've done in September last year launching these parawings completely changed my life. I didn't know what I was wanting and what
gear I was after and what was going to be like my next thing. And I was really into like what Sam did with the pocket wings. And I'm like, Oh my God, mean, maybe I'll try it. I got my son's trainer kite held the bridles one day on a 30 knot day and with a 2.5 and my downwind board. I'm like, Ooh, man, there's so much power in this thing. And then it got wet. And then the session was over. And then when you launched.
your launch video, honestly, I watched that thing maybe 10 times in a row and I was trying to understand if you were going upwind, if you weren't going upwind and like when I made that you guys were going upwind, I went onto your website and bought one within probably an hour of being exposed to it. So thank you first and foremost and welcome to the podcast as well.
Greg (02:57)
Thank you for the welcome, thank you β for all those kind words and for being an early adopter of it. β Super appreciate all that. You said September?
Daniel Paronetto (03:07)
I love
Greg (03:09)
11th. I don't remember all dates, but that was a big one.
Daniel Paronetto (03:10)
Mm-hmm.
That was a huge one, man. And I think for me, the thing that kind of struck me the most was, look, it wasn't that different from what we had seen before. It was like a five, 10 % improvement on the pocket wing that completely changed everything and made it usable, rideable. Like when I saw it, it looked so familiar because I come from a kiting background. And then when I saw it, I'm like, I can definitely do that. And then when I saw you...
pull it away, like, all right, I can surf. And that's my quest is just to surf, right? And I live in a bay. So I'm like, that was the game changer for me. But having you here, I think is a great opportunity for us just to talk a little bit about that history and just have it documented because, β you know, I'm always curious of what you guys are doing in Maui. You guys are always, you know, coming up with all these ideas and...
had Cynthia on the podcast and she had that parachute contraption and then Sam Reynolds came out with the pocket wing then you came out with yours. Can you tell us a little bit about the lead up and your design thinking of how you actually got to the Malika one?
Greg (04:33)
Yeah, there's for sure no singular starting point. β You mentioned Sam and Cynthia and like sort of this crazy Maui situation where a lot of people are doing crazy stuff. β I think I've described it differently at different times and what has occurred to me recently is like, you know, they're all interesting stories and their descriptions, but... β
I'm sort of just picking different starting points at different times because there's so many. For sure, I think it came most directly out of inflatable wings. I was working for a long, long time on trying to make a better inflatable wing, just rounds and rounds and rounds of prototypes and not getting β anywhere near satisfied. And so the box...
Daniel Paronetto (05:08)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (05:32)
thinking out of the box just was getting crazier and crazier. β the first prototype that I'll say was really in the direction of first power wing was an inflatable leading edge, which now something's come out in the market, which is remarkably close to an early prototype of that. β And yeah, so mean, it's just coming...
coming from Inflatable Wings and borrowing from Kite Design stuff that I've worked on for a super long time and just trying to make a better wing. The idea of putting it away and all of that, what that opens up, I wasn't trying to like, β how do I do that? I was really just trying to make a better wing. Something that...
Daniel Paronetto (06:17)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (06:30)
What would I have been searching for really? mean, again, it's so many different things. Very early on inflatable wings, β I wasn't going to put a harness back on, and so I actually took a long loop of line, tied it on the outside of my handles, and I just loop it around my back and take the load off my arms and forearms and hands. So no harness, no belt, no harness lines, just that thing. β
Daniel Paronetto (06:42)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (06:57)
So doing that after a while, I'm like, oh, one day I'm like, oh, let's fly the wing on that. And so my brother and I were goofing around that. We got a guy here on Maui named JD Follow Cam on YouTube, and he put out a video of us doing that, however many years ago that was. And that got a lot of views, and I think started a lot of people talking. And that actually was a pretty legitimate starting point, because from there, we were playing around with, oh, well, we were using it for a harness, but we're...
Daniel Paronetto (07:08)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (07:27)
What if we made that line shorter or longer, connected different ways and I made kite designs without a strut? I'm like, could I make a wing without a strut? Where am I going to attach this line? How am going to make it work? And things kind of went from there. When I made the first design dedicated off of that concept, it didn't work even as well as just an inflatable wing hanging it off this harness line. β So that was what really pushed like, well,
Daniel Paronetto (07:29)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (07:54)
you know, what about this isn't working and why? And was that rigid leading edge and wing tips that wasn't wing-werping, wasn't responsive. β So that's, okay, well let's ditch the inflatable parts, single skin paragliders and snow kites and taking those on a water, been around for a long, long time. Okay, we'll just, that'll be softer, that's gonna be more responsive, it's gonna be lighter. And so it's just lots of things that,
you know, overlapped with or followed what Sinbad and Sam and all those guys were doing, but came to it from a different place.
Daniel Paronetto (08:30)
Mm-hmm.
Man, I think that's awesome. And, and I, I envy you guys on Maui so much with all that creative energy around you and you know, people pushing sports and just pushing time on water, just wanting to do these things. And again, not trying to be a super, you know, groupie here, but thank you for like putting that energy into something that is a new industry now, man. It's the next thing. And people are slowly understanding the benefit.
of a parawing especially if you're a winger and you reach that point where you're just cruising around, you're flagging your wing. If that's how you ride, you should be on a parawing today. Don't you think?
Greg (09:19)
Yeah, for sure. mean, you mentioned the results of that. Where it's come so quickly. β For me, it was a complete shock. I thought...
that you know, maybe nearly everybody would look this thing and be like, know, what's that? You know, what's that about? What's that even for? Like the downwind crew, like the people that committed to the paddle, I thought they're gonna be like, no way, this is not for me. But yeah, for sure not the case. We pretty quickly went over to the gorge and landed at the hatchery and that beach park just went bananas for the first week out and.
Daniel Paronetto (09:46)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Greg (10:03)
It's been full speed ahead ever since. In terms of your question of like, should everybody be doing this? I mean, I think so. for me, there isn't a place for a pump anymore. β don't, mean, surfing, something around, I mean, absolutely not. For me, this is the answer, the perfect answer to β my riding dream for years and years and years. was kite foiling.
Daniel Paronetto (10:22)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (10:33)
trying to get rid of the kite just so I could foil surf. We were all kinds of weirdo stunts trying to ditch the kite. You know, either get our buddies to tow us up or land it down to somebody and let them scoop up the kite. And we're doing all these things to just get rid of it so we could have a nice long foil surf. But then you've got all the hassles of like getting your gear back, know, untangling lines, doing all this crazy stuff. Winging came along and at first I was like, I'm not gonna be a winger.
That's not the answer, but a couple influential people were like, come on man, open your mind, gave it a shot, super fun, and was definitely a step closer. But as soon as Cloud9, well, I didn't hear about their anchor, yeah, wing anchor directly, a friend of mine was like, whoa, check out this thing, I just got it, this is gonna be amazing, a whole crew of us are gonna get together.
Daniel Paronetto (11:10)
Yeah.
Mm
Mm-hmm.
Greg (11:33)
four downwinders, five downwinders, and one wing, we're gonna like get up, ditch it to the next guy, and just have this rotation going. Actually, that sounds interesting, but for me, like the light went immediately on, like this is my answer for riding waves. So I just cut up some canopy, tied a couple of lines, you I couldn't even wait long enough to get one in my hands, I just immediately made one, and it was like, this is amazing, but again, you you ditch your wing.
Daniel Paronetto (11:49)
Right.
Greg (12:02)
how far are you gonna go downwind or how long a wave are you gonna go? I didn't have the pump game to go all the way back up to this thing. It's a pretty slow drift. anyway, was all of these experiences were just trying to do what basically I'm doing now. It's just like perfect. No jet ski, none of those hassles. You've got your power source right there with you. It's amazing. So yeah, for me, it was like that.
Daniel Paronetto (12:28)
Yeah, look,
what you said in, that evolution of what you were trying to achieve was exactly my experience with getting behind a kite mates, towing me, you know, running them over because kite towing is just so, you know, sketchy. When I saw the, the wing, I'm like, that's what I want to do. I want to surf. It's in the way. And then I got into depth, down winning because then I could serve for 10 kilometers, but then you have.
everything that goes with downwinding as a sport, you have the shuttling. And I am really a fan of gear that maximizes my time on foil. And that's why I still love kite foiling because when you're kite foiling, you're up on foil for 95 % of your session. Same with wing foiling. So you progress really quick and the downwinding journey.
is so grueling because when you're learning, your time on foil is so small for the amount of effort that you have to put in. And I live in a bay, which, the shuttling isn't that bad, but β when the power wing came out, I'm like, well, if you're going to learn how to downwind as well, coming from a winging background, it's such a natural progression to then have, you know, the maximum amount of laps going on a downwind.
I'm not even going to call it a run because you could go upwind for a kilometer and come down and you can learn how to downwind so much faster, so I'm pushing my crew here to learn and not ditch the paddle people still like to paddle but There are days that you can't beat the power wing if it's over 20 knots You know you're going downwind on an 80 liter board small foil with nothing in your hands, you know like
For me, that's gonna be a no brainer for people. It's gonna open up so much.
Greg (14:28)
Yeah, for me, I came to this from surfing. I'd done some downwind runs with my inflatable wing, and I definitely had friends that were totally excited about it. But with an inflatable wing, it didn't hook me. I don't know what it was. If it was just too easy to bring the wing back up, not commit to the experience to, you know...
Daniel Paronetto (14:55)
Mm-hmm
Greg (14:58)
really connecting with the bumps. There was no consequence. It was just too easy. Something about it was just like, I mean, it's okay. It's nice being, know, anything out on the water is nice, but β it's not going to become my addiction, you know. Riding a wave, foil surfing was the thing. So really right from the get-go, β that was the goal. As I said, you know, like with the kite foiling, with the winging.
Daniel Paronetto (15:06)
Yeah.
Greg (15:27)
being able to get rid of something and ride the wave. all the work with this combined with the focus being on just making a better inflatable wing, was like, okay, well, like the F1 now, it's like, okay, I can fly this thing, what am I gonna do with it? Yeah, I can still flag it, whatever. But then when we got rid of the inflated leading edge, and I was like, okay, actually we can put this thing away.
Daniel Paronetto (15:42)
Mm-hmm.
way.
Greg (15:52)
How was that lost on me? How was that not the goal from the beginning? And even like, it was such a long process, the first, a whole bunch of early prototypes, I'd ride with a leash, just because my inflatable wing had a leash, so why wouldn't I? even today, it's still an unraveling process of questioning old habits, the old ways of doing things, like, do I need a leash with this thing?
Daniel Paronetto (16:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Greg (16:22)
Let
me try, let me let this thing go. Oh my gosh, it just sits there and waits for me. Like it is the C anchor I was already using with an inflatable wing. Like how did I not see that? So it was probably like, you know, many, many, six months later or something before I even like connected it out. I wait, I'm still riding with a leg rope. Do I need that now? I didn't have one kite foiling. I had one wing foiling. Let me try this out.
Daniel Paronetto (16:30)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Greg (16:50)
and I haven't put one back on since. It's just incredible. Wing foiling got pretty hectic. You're leashed to this inflatable wing, you're leashed to this board with a hydrofoil attached to it, and you're getting work. It's just a bad recipe. So now to be able to ditch β is unbelievable. I β still don't let my parawing go all the time.
Daniel Paronetto (16:53)
Mmm.
Greg (17:19)
But my brother, for one, example, if he's about to come unhinged, he's about to eat it, he just lets it go. And it's pretty crazy. That's a curious habit that I haven't seen in anybody else yet, but it totally makes sense.
Daniel Paronetto (17:27)
Yeah.
The,
you said you're not riding with a leash on the board, so are you kind of like body dragging with the Parawing like you do with the Kai to rescue your board? And that's working well for you. Never had a moment where the board's just like flying down when you can't get to it.
Greg (17:53)
I'm sure that day will come and if I'm doing a downwind or if I'm well offshore, for sure I put a leash on. Or if you're going to be in a crowded surf break where a loose foil board is going to be a hazard to others, there's a million places where it is the right choice. β But where I ride, it's not crowded, there aren't people around and I feel like I've already sort gotten in a pretty...
Daniel Paronetto (17:56)
Mm-hmm good point
Mm-hmm.
Greg (18:20)
Worst case situation, but a situation where it's like, okay, today's the day, I've lost it. Down into surf, wave takes the board in. I get drilled, power wing's all full of water. I'm like, okay, this is gonna be the swim. Is it gone? But just took my time, got the power wing out, got it up. It flies pretty well. You can kinda swim with it and got it back even. It went a good ways, but yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (18:36)
Hmm.
I'm gonna try that.
Greg (18:51)
It's liberating riding without it, without leashes.
Daniel Paronetto (18:51)
Yeah, because I'm all about like,
I like, sorry, and I apologize that I'm talking over you. We just have a little bit of a delay in the audio. I'm all about like minimizing everything as well. I don't like to, I write unhooked all the time. I never have a harness, you know, line or anything like that. And I do struggle with the leash today. Finding the perfect leash for power winging is annoying because a coil leash is definitely the worst thing in the planet for it.
Greg (18:58)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (19:19)
And all the other options I'm just not comfortable with them. So I will try no leash and like you said if I'm going downwind insure, but I'm gonna try that and I I had someone asked me that question In one of the parowinging groups like can you actually body drag to your board? And I said look I haven't tried it but I wouldn't I'm not gonna suggest you do that But hearing it from you. I'm definitely going to give it a go because I love just the simplicity of
bored, powering. Like there's no pump, there's no leash, there's no anything, and I always try to go the minimalist route in my gear. β Greg, you mentioned that you did a lot of testing with your brother. who were you bouncing ideas from when you were in that development phase, and who helped you the most? Was it your brother that was just testing this stuff with you, or who else was involved?
Greg (20:17)
Lots of projects take on their own, a life of their own. And sometimes I just fully go inward, not just hammering away at something. And I'm like, I don't know, it's like if you're a painter or a musician, don't listen to this or don't look at the painting until I'm done, you're be like, that's terrible. So sometimes I wanna get things to a certain point before I'm ready for critiques.
β And other times it's like a different situation. For sure in the case of the original Parrowing, it was one of those cases where I was way out in left field doing my thing and β my brother who oftentimes were trading out gear and doing work β together, he'd ride it and be like, okay, but what are you doing? Like, this is like.
Daniel Paronetto (21:15)
Mmm, where are you going with
this?
Greg (21:16)
Not cool.
This is not the path forward. β But he was polite and he humored me and you know, β because there are cases like I'm just, I'm on a mission, I'm hammering away like I'm invested in making this thing work. Can anybody else less invested, you know, fly this thing? β But it was pretty intuitive for him to get on it, make it work right from the get go. Yeah, I mean, it's gotten to the point now that the lines are short enough, the line types are...
Daniel Paronetto (21:33)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (21:47)
avoid tangles to such a large degree. I'm out there somewhere, somebody comes cruising by that doesn't even do wind sports, like, what is that thing? First thing I do is I put it in their hands, I'm like, here, try it. And it's crazy without any explanation, no foundation. Like, nine times out of 10, people just like, β yeah, this is totally cool. So it is, and for me, that's one of the...
Daniel Paronetto (21:49)
Mm-hmm.
That's awesome. That's a testament it's working, isn't it?
Greg (22:17)
the things I hold on to when people are like, power winging, like, I'm not a good enough inflatable winger yet, I've got to wait, you know, or that's some sort of prerequisite. I hope that doesn't take hold as a narrative or the way of looking at it because when I see how easily people can do it right from the get-go, I feel like it has the potential for
Daniel Paronetto (22:25)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (22:46)
new entrance right into the water sports. It's just a great way to enjoy foiling.
Daniel Paronetto (22:49)
Interesting.
Yeah, well, I think look as the industry continues to progress more information out there of how to start and like tutorials online and all that stuff, it will get to the point where that might be people's first sport β that, know, attract, especially if you're a surfer, like if you come from like a surfing background, I think obviously you go proning, but then if you're going to, you know, have your little towing device, that's the only thing that you would probably go for right now. β
Greg, let's talk about your new parawings. Once again, you caught the industry with their pants down and launched the V2s and something that I thought was going to happen maybe two, three years down the line, having one brand launch specific parawings for specific needs. I thought that was going to be a little bit further down the line, but you didn't waste any time and you developed a pair of wing for downwinding.
pairwing for wave riding and one that is β probably does it all, goes upwind really well and people who want to do these longer upwind, downwind runs. Can you explain a little bit about your new V2s and who are they for?
Greg (24:09)
I mean, I think you described them pretty pretty succinctly. Well done. Thanks for getting it β Yeah, it was kind of funny I think especially for me to go there like in the kiting world. I only made one model kite. You know, it was just There's net there's never a mission to like make everything for everybody It's it's just to make what I'm into what I want to ride
That's how I approach things. this, it was an absolute necessity to open it up because I just felt like there was a vacuum of gear focused on what different people are doing. it wasn't, you know, like, it was such a stark contrast between the different disciplines that people were using the original Maliko. You know, we'd travel one place and see people just...
Daniel Paronetto (25:02)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (25:08)
fully downwind in a place where the bumps aren't far off the beach, they'd like get up and within less than a minute, they're putting it away and it never comes out again. It's a full foil cyst. They would tell me like, I have no care in the world how this thing flies, how it handles, how it depowers, how it goes upwind of that. None of those are my interest. Just I use this to get on foil and go downwind. So I want it compact and powerful, period.
completely different than so many other people that are like, you know, I live on a lake somewhere and, or maybe even a lake's a bad example. mean, lake's ours for sure, but some place where a shuttle for a downwind thing, just there isn't the access, it's not happening. So, I just want something that screams up wind. If it's harder to put away or...
Whatever the trade-off is going to be, this is my power tool to get upwind to do my downwind. I'm all about downwinding, but this is my access tool. Completely different use case. And then for me, I'm the third of the three. As I said earlier, I just want to ride a wave. I want something that's going to get me back to the peak, but I'm to be able to immediately put it away, surf, surf, surf, surf, and when I kick out, I want the thing to just boom, right open and repeat.
So very, very, very clear objectives. And so that was the goal in making the three ranges, to make the best I can today answer those different needs.
Daniel Paronetto (26:49)
love that and I love all of those disciplines and I can see myself choosing different pair wings for those days. And I've been riding a lot of pair wings from different brands and you know, some of them really go up wind well, some of them have a huge bottom end and in my mind I was already thinking, well, this is the one that I would use for downwind. I would never take this out if I was doing upwind downwind runs. And then in the day that I want just to hang around a high performing area, I would take this one. So.
Can you just explain for us a little bit what are the differences that make them good for those specific β disciplines? So let's start maybe with the Maliko. The Maliko is the one that goes down, it has a good bottom end for downwinding. What are the characteristics of the parrowing that make it good for that?
Greg (27:40)
A couple things. Pack size is one thing. So for that one where we weren't going for total rigidity, total stability for high line loads when you're grinding up wind, edging against it, we went fewer panels, so fewer lines as a result, fewer nose ribs and rods, all kinds of stuff so that just when you pack it up, it can be as small as possible.
Not that that's... β We made lots of choices in this product and we also... some of the choices were to make it for more advanced riders. you know, those people with skills can kind of take their time and make something small, but still that ultimate small pack size is a nice thing. β One thing we did on it is increase the line length β to... pretty substantially.
It's not proportional to the side. There's some unique things going on there which we can dive deep on. But β basically those longer lines aren't going to give you, they're not going to be as quick to put it away or to deploy it, but they're going to give you more horsepower or more grunt, more pumping. But even that, β now that it's out and it's getting in more of rider's hands and it's being compared with like the car, for example, I'm learning a bunch. β For me, for,
the board sizes I'm often riding for the technique I'm applying. The longer line length makes a lot of sense. It gives me more low end. But β had an interesting conversation and feedback from a rider recently coming from paddling up where he's got a really fast, quick cadence in his paddling and he does the same quick pumping with the wing and he actually finds the short lines of the kaha are more effective for that technique.
So different riders are going to get β different things out of the performance differences between the two. But β that low end power and small pack size was sort of goal. β Fewer lines, less things to tangle, just simple foil assist for the downwinder. The other two wings, Ka'a and the Kana'a are much more similar. They both have really, really short lines.
Daniel Paronetto (29:36)
Interesting.
Greg (30:03)
Both of them are quite focused on stability and upper end range. β That's probably the biggest difference between the original and the second generation products is...
higher performance into way, way higher power levels, which is a super fascinating new opportunity for parawinging, where on the originals, I pretty well only rode a mid-sized board and wanted to ride not overly powered. Now it's totally possible to ride super powered up, so tiny boards are a thing now.
Daniel Paronetto (30:31)
Mm-hmm.
That's huge.
Greg (30:48)
and where it goes from there, how people will tap into that is going to be super fun to watch this year. For me, on a downwind scene, like in the gorge for example, where unlike here where you're way out to sea and maybe it's not a great idea to be out there without a board that you can paddle in comfortably, gorge is a different scenario. So I feel like that's going to be a place where people are to be on
Daniel Paronetto (30:55)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
Greg (31:16)
crazy small boards, choosing a size where they're super lit up, boom, right up on foil, the thing goes away, and they're gonna be riding itty bitty boards, doing crazy stuff. It's gonna be amazing.
Daniel Paronetto (31:28)
Yeah, I'm gonna be there in July with β a lot of the crew really, Cynthia, Ken, Atgate's gonna be there as well. β Keith Tabool is gonna be there with his new mid-lengths as well, doing some demos and I can't wait to just meet everyone there. And for me in Hood, I would actually go with the Kanaha because I don't wanna get in these vans, man, and do shuttling all day. I wanna...
I'm gonna go to wherever the bumps are the biggest and I'm just gonna lap that. And I think that's the beauty of the para-wing. β With the current going against you, you could even just sit down on your board, have a little lunch, and just ride for four hours. That's my plan. After speaking with Ken, β he was like, man, I'm not getting into shuttles. I'm like, why not? We can go upwind, man. I'm like, yeah, you can go upwind. So that's the plan. β
Greg (32:10)
Thank
Daniel Paronetto (32:24)
One thing, β Greg, that I'm curious about the kaha and the kanaha. So the kaha mainly for wave riding, the kanaha, the option for people who want to maximize their upwind angles and things like that. How far are they in terms of their ability to go upwind? Because in my mind, if I were to choose one of β the BRMs today, I would go with the kaha.
And I would go with the caja because I like the idea of short lines. For me, short lines, people underestimate how important short lines are for the ease of stowing. If you have huge lines and you have to bring your arm, like your arm length all the way out, it just becomes too much. And obviously you have to do that second recoil of the lines. I think the chances are that...
things are gonna go worse. So I love the idea of tiny lines. Tiny lines for me are everything and I think, unfortunately for the smaller sizes, you might have to have maybe longer lines, because it's too close to you and it's tiny. But for β like the threes, which I think are beautiful, parawings, shorter lines are a game changer. So tell us a little bit about how far up
up when you can go with the kΔnaha compared to the kaha. Like, what's that actual difference in the percentage or however you want to describe it?
Greg (33:52)
Yeah, I don't have β concrete data that I could point to to talk about degrees or what it is. For me, it's a feel thing for sure. having those two being so similar, really, β there's an aspect ratio difference. The line difference is actually very little, and it's related to the aspect ratio. β
Daniel Paronetto (34:00)
Anecdotal data works. We trust you.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Greg (34:22)
not anything else. β But having those two ranges β benefited them both because I'd like work on one and be like, this thing's amazing. Forget the other one. I'm just going to do this one. I'm like, OK, well, let me apply those changes over here. no, actually, one, leapfrog, that one is way, better. We're just going to do this one. And they just duked it out and competed. β It's the first time I've done a project kind of quite like that, at least for board writing Maui.
Daniel Paronetto (34:53)
Mm.
Greg (34:53)
So that was super fun. But I would have sessions on the Ka'a where I'm like, oh, this thing goes crazy upwind. Like, I don't need something stronger upwind than this, at least for my riding. And then I'd get on a Kanahame, oh no, actually wait, this is going higher. And so it's a real, they're both plenty good for me, and that's why for me I ride the Ka'a, because it goes upwind plenty high enough for me. What I like about it is,
It's so quick and responsive. As a big surprise to me, β the Kanawha has been far more popular than I would have expected also for wave riders. I thought it was going to be purely the flat water people heading out to upwind bumps, but some riders, some high skilled riders are loving it. like, no, no, once you get a taste of even a little more upwind angle, you're straight back to the peak.
Daniel Paronetto (35:38)
Mhm.
Greg (35:51)
or you're going to different wreaths you wouldn't have bothered shooting out to. β The only real trade-off, I'm like, hey, for sure I'm with you, but you can outrun it. You have to plan ahead differently for your turns and that. That's why I don't choose it. And they're like, yeah, I felt that, but it's a worthwhile trade-off. So definitely maybe somebody that isn't
Daniel Paronetto (35:52)
Thank you.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (36:20)
as observant with their gear β to put in that additional technique. They're going to appreciate sort of the brainless handling of the Ka'a. Yeah, where the Kanaha just requires a little more front of pilot. I don't know that, I think more than anything it just goes a bit faster, the nature of its aspect ratio. So as a rider, you want to ease off the gas pedal before you go ripping into a turn. β Maybe the lower aspect of Ka'a is just...
Daniel Paronetto (36:31)
Mm-hmm.
more top-end.
That's a good point, yeah.
Shaving a little bit off speed so you're matching the speed of the bump and you're just not fanging it into the bump. β Tell us a little bit about your riding techniques. You're a wave guy, right? So for people that want to get into wave riding, and I think it's probably the β discipline to do in parrowing just because of that short moment that you have of transferring the power from the parrowing to the swell, figuring out that
that moment where it shifts and then bringing everything in, putting it away. And ultimately I think we should be stowing it properly instead of wadding. think wadding is great and it just maximizes your relaunch success. But I like to stow and just like, you know, become proficient at that. but tell us a little bit about how you, you know, look at a swell line and you're like, this is what I'm going to be doing. This is how I'm going to be riding.
and that moment of stowing, what do you look for when you're doing that to maximize your wave time?
Greg (37:57)
So, coming from inflatable β wings, there are some technique differences. β The big one being with the inflatable wing, could be, for our trade wind direction here, you could be going left, you could be going upwind, and you could just flag your wing out at any point. With a power wing, I had to adjust my technique to go right, to go down the line, to go off the wind.
Daniel Paronetto (38:25)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (38:26)
to take the tension off the line, just put it away. And as it was such a new thing, riding it, exploring, letting the experience educate me what to do here, I just accepted that pretty quickly. getting that product out there, like earlier time, my brother, for example, he was all like, oh, but I want to put it away going left. The fact that I've got to bear off, maybe I don't want to go right yet.
He was kind this is kind of bummer. β As you do it more, it becomes automatic, you're used to it. β And now, super exciting to me, β just with this second generation gear, I think the opportunity was always there. I just didn't see it. β But pulling the V lines, pulling your center lines is a great way to kill the wing. So you can be fully riding up into the wind, pinching hard left.
and if you just give your bees a good, it's just a power kill, it just drops the wing. So it is possible now for me, newly for me in power wing, be, you know, used to only go right to put it away, now I can go left, kill anywhere. β So I don't really, I've been riding waves around Maui for so long, I know them all sort of, every wave's unique but.
Daniel Paronetto (39:31)
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Greg (39:54)
I know the breaks and the days and you can kind of read it. know exactly what to expect. So I'm probably not a good person to kind of break down the precise technique. that's one interesting thing. I another question there I forgot to circle back to.
Daniel Paronetto (40:15)
No, think you answered it and I think for me I can definitely see now the caja, like the advantage of the caja because if you do pull those bee lines, what tends to do, the parrowing kind of folds, right, into itself and if you have long lines, the propensity of those lines going to the back of the parrowing and it becoming a mess increase so I can see like a quick yank on the bees with small lines could be like as long as you get to the canopy quick enough.
I think you'd be pretty safe that your relaunch would be cool. β That's awesome, but I do want to continue on with the gear because there's a lot of talk about β color-coded leading edges, color-coded lines, color-coded bars. Why are you steering away from that and why are you so stubborn?
Greg (41:06)
β am I?
Daniel Paronetto (41:11)
I can
see with your experience in riding, I think you can have a pair of wing in your hand with your eyes closed and know where everything is. But for the newcomer to the sport, why haven't you gone down that route? I'm just curious about that.
Greg (41:26)
Okay, yeah, awesome question and let me have it for sure β because you're right, I can absolutely be stubborn and so we can talk about that. But the reason I said, what are you talking about is because I felt like I had to work hard to be like, no, no, no, get out of your own head, Greg, β with the second generation. The front lines are color coded. β The inside of the leading edge.
Daniel Paronetto (41:55)
buttons.
Greg (41:56)
has colors now in all the different models. And so it's like, okay, people ask for it and I did it, all right. Because for sure when I first started I'm like, oh my gosh, just put time in, just learn to stuff. All these things that seem like problems go away. I mean, I could cite a gazillion different examples, but the one I...
Daniel Paronetto (42:15)
Mm-hmm.
They do.
Greg (42:26)
It always sticks with me. My life in the water started as a 12 year old kid on an inland lake in the mainland US and a big old windsurf board. And I don't even know if foot straps were a thing yet back then, but as soon as they were, I was still a beginner, I'm like, why do they put the foot straps on the tail of the board? I'm standing up here in the middle. If they put the foot straps in the middle, it would make way more sense. People are like, settle down, learn to windsurf. You'll figure out why they're there in the back. So I was like,
These kind of things are like, okay, you'll figure it out with a parawing. But having said that and overcome what can be some stubbornness, β I have come to be like, you know what? You were right. β Some color coding on the lines doesn't hurt anything. I thought it was just gonna be visually distracting and unpleasant. It's like, nah, it's all good. And it is a good aid.
Daniel Paronetto (42:58)
Hmm.
Mm.
Greg (43:24)
for untangling things, it doesn't hurt a thing. that, a little bit of color in the canopy. I I feel like there is a sweet spot. I've definitely observed in my own writing that if I try to focus on too many different things, I'll miss them all. If I can focus on a single thing, I have way more success. And so in the case of what is the right amount of visual indication?
Daniel Paronetto (43:27)
huh.
Hmm.
Greg (43:55)
colors for front lines and middle lines and back lines and left lines and right lines, like how are you going to even know which is which? So I feel like what are the real priorities? What do you need to identify and how quickly and then just calling those things out? β Exactly how that settles as industry standards, time will tell, but yeah, some indication is good.
Daniel Paronetto (44:00)
Hmm.
Yeah, and I think what you mentioned before and in one of your videos, β you talk about three different ways to bring the power wing down, going through the back lines, going through the B lines, and then just using the front lines. And I believe that you're using a lot more of the front line technique, which automatically you have the leading edge in your hand. So the color coding becomes a little bit less important because the technique now is evolving as well.
on how to ward properly, how to stow properly. So β tell us a little bit about those three techniques, because I think that's super helpful for people that want to begin to, you know, depower the pair of wing, going through the front lines, middle lines, which you mentioned before, and the real lines. When do you use each of those?
Greg (45:08)
Yeah, the middles are only used as a kill if I'm under high load and need to put it away. For me, β it's the least clean of the three because a wing can sort of somersault and move around and you get disorganized. But it is a super... Of the three, it's probably the most effective, like, power is off. So even if... I don't know what situations would...
Daniel Paronetto (45:12)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (45:35)
would come up where like even if you need to come to the aid of somebody else or this or that, I think it's just really good to know that that is the off switch. The front lines, β I used to climb up all the front lines β and some people here include me into, I credit Elliot because he's the one who told me, but he's like, no, no, wait, actually I learned that from Sinbad. But if you just grab a couple of your front, β
the centers. You don't need to count them out. It doesn't need to be even symmetric. You can just kind of reach up anywhere and grab some of the fronts. And as you rightly mentioned, that's a great way. It keeps you at the front of the wing. And it's a great way to... If you're just going to be bringing it in for a second and throwing it right back out, that's great. β
You know, I'm blessed to live in a place with like some pretty nice long rides, downwind surf, all of it. So pretty much all the time, I'm sweeping up from the back, pulling in on the back of the bar, dropping the wing down. As I turn off the wind, turning off the wind is key. And then sweeping up all the lines. β It keeps all the lines super organized when I pack it up. You mentioned...
the throwing it back out and having everything organized as maybe being a potential benefit to just climbing the fronts. But I think the more it's done, and for me personally, the fact that I'm primarily using this as a wave riding tool, I'll cycle through so many waves in a session. So there's so much practice, so many opportunities for getting it wrong, but so much practice at getting it right.
Daniel Paronetto (47:12)
so many laps.
Greg (47:22)
with time and with practice, it becomes a pretty natural, you you don't even need like really be giving it focused attention, how to pack it up, how to put it away. I even, you know, I used to like tuck the bar on the outside of the pack to try to keep it away from the lines and that, but I've learned techniques of capturing all the lines inside the canopy as I bunch it all up. And so the bar stays on the outside. It all goes in the belt as one.
pack, spin it, and then when I'm ready for it again, the bar is right there on top, so I just reach for the bar and actually pull the bar out and slide some lines out and just kind of wait there, and then the wing comes out right at the end, almost like it's a parachute coming out of a pack, and just kind of opens on its own.
Daniel Paronetto (48:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, from my
first session to now, β people are so scared of, this is never gonna work. And the tangle in the beginning is a little bit of a factor, but it's just repetition and it comes a lot quicker than you think. And I do a lot of land drills. I love land drills. I love getting people on land, learning how to tack, learning how to do all these things on land because once you go into the water, you understand what needs to happen.
So if people are concerned about that, I just say look take it to the land man. Just do it a hundred times You'll see that you'll come up with a way that when you're bunching things together put the lines in there it doesn't have to be like Super neat as long as they're contained it will the parawings sorts itself out And even if it doesn't if you have to pull a little line out, you know, you get it and it's not that bad Greg, I'm really curious to understand what kind of gear you you ride
what kind of boards you ride, what kind of foils. I think that has a lot of impact on the wind range of these power wings today and what we can get out of them. So can you explain a little bit what your board choices are and your foil choices are?
Greg (49:28)
Yeah, for sure. β I tend to be a total minimalist in those regards. I love keeping it simple. I just love having one board and foil in my van. Doesn't matter the conditions, just grab and go. It works super well for me. So β I've got a custom KT, β 6'0/ 19/ 90 liter.
super light, awesome board. It's my everyday board. And in development purposes, β I'll try other things and have ridden a little bit bigger, have ridden way, way smaller. β All of it's possible, has its pros and cons, but for me, that's my sweet spot of a super early takeoff. When the wind's below 15 or so,
β That's for me where a bigger board would have a potential advantage. β But living here, you know, we very often have stronger winds and so that's not a need. Yeah, yeah, for sure. β So I don't need one of those in my quiver β just for how infrequently I'd use it. But I would if I lived in a lighter wind place. β So a board with early takeoff. It just allows me to ride with
Daniel Paronetto (50:36)
Very lucky.
Greg (50:55)
the least in my hands, the lightest power load, which going back to last year, that was probably like a singular goal of like, you know, how early can I take off with how little power to just have as nice a possible feeling in my hands. That's really changed now β as things are evolving and expanding and like for upwind riding, for example, I want a bit more power. β My upwind angles are way higher.
So if I'm doing that style of riding, would make plenty sense to... β It would be possible to ride a slightly smaller board or considerably smaller board depending on... But then if the wind drops in your session, you're to have fewer options. So I spent so many years kite foiling. I have been foiling pretty exclusively for my water sports since 2014.
Daniel Paronetto (51:36)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (51:55)
crazy number of hours on foil. And on the kite side, I was riding itty bitty little boards. I've kind of been there, done that. When I started with inflatable wings, learned on a big board, and then immediately went down to a prone board. And I was just always struggling to get going in that. And so since that early time on inflatable wings, even through years of riding inflatable wings, every board I've gotten since then has been bigger and more efficient than the one before.
It's been a straight line in that direction. So it just maximizes options. And then on the foil side, I ride an Armstrong 1080, H-A-1080. Yeah, I mean, here at least and other places, there seems like there's a strong tend toward smaller foils. And I think there's places for that in downwinding and bigger waves and different things like that. But I'm kind of a cruiser.
Daniel Paronetto (52:28)
Mm-hmm.
Beautiful foil.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (52:55)
for a great low end, great pumping, still carvey and nice, but that early take off as well. Yeah, ride a bigger foil like that.
Daniel Paronetto (53:06)
There's so much to unpack on that one because if people are really keen to go to that, you know, sinker volume and minimize your board, β you can still have a lot of fun on a big foil and that will help you get up. Like for me, if I'm writing an 1130, which I write code to the 1130S, it's a similar aspect ratio to the high aspects from Armstrong. So not super high aspect. β I tend to go with the...
extra small fuse, which number one, it helps with turns and that's fine, but I was amazed with how much speed you get out of a shorter fuse as well. So for downwinding even on the 1130S, I can still keep up with bumps and I can still get up on a small volume board. So there's a lot to play with there β in terms of.
what foils you're going to be riding, what board size is. And then if you are going to a one to eight volume ratio, then you can start downsizing your foils and having more fun that way. β What do you think, for example, we were still lacking in this industry for people to have fun. What is the low hanging fruit that you're still trying to solve for in terms of our gear?
And I'm thinking about anything that could be an accessory. I think I like, for example, and I'm in my head, I come to the belts. I like the belts and I hate the belts at the same time. β if I'm, if I'm going downwind, β on a downwind run, I don't really care because you know, if I take 30 seconds to stow, it doesn't hurt me. I'm going on, you know, 10, 20 kilometer downwind run. fine. β but if I'm.
wave riding, I want a faster option to get rid of the power wing and not have anything in my hands. I want something that I can get it, chuck it, you know, under the rash was my initial thing, but obviously it just falls down, you know, when you're riding. So what are you, what are you like not enjoying when you're out there, like, I want to fix this.
Greg (55:22)
Yeah, I could comment on a lot of different parts there. The wave riding and the still and everything like that. mean, one of the things with the second generation β part wings from board riding Mali is the bars got way shorter β and different in other ways as well. But the effect on that of the speed of putting it away is crazy. β mean, you know, the curve around our body that the belt follows, you you're stretching a lot of material to get something in.
Daniel Paronetto (55:35)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (55:52)
β So yeah, I mean, if we stash something in vertically instead of horizontally, there would be a solve, then you get, it's kind of crazy. I've played with all sorts of different belt designs and I mean, there's so much new and unique and fun about power wing, teaching my wife, like I'll go out on the water with multiple power wings. Like, so I've made belts that are like holsters that all have like three or four power wings on me.
She's like, I'd like a little different size. Here you go, sweetheart. Just switch them out in the water. But at any rate, sort of, and we made some changes β with the launch of the second generation power wings. We launched a second model of belt. So there's options in functionality there as well. But β I think your larger question was what's the opportunity, what's bugging me when I'm on the water, something like that.
Right now, everything. Which is, like for me, the best possible place to be because it's the most motivation to make improvements. When the first Power Wing came out, at that time, I was like, whew, okay, got a project finished here, I thought, this is about as far as it's gonna go.
Daniel Paronetto (56:52)
I that.
Mmm.
Greg (57:16)
what am I going to do next? Because I thought we were just taking a single skin paraglider, put it on a bar, and we're done. It's mature design platform. There isn't much else to do with it. β In work following that, which ended up being for the second generation, was like, no, that was not the case at all. And it's been fascinating that... β
Daniel Paronetto (57:26)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Greg (57:47)
sort of control systems, if you will, from the kiting side. How we piloted our kites and what the result was β on the kite side to angle of attacks and this and that β have started to come into play. And so the way the yoke functions on the second generation is depending on the angle of attack at the bar, the B line's moving in a prescribed way and has a point where it's just not gonna continue to get any longer.
And so the kite equivalent of that is we would sheet our bar in and out. And when we would sheet our bar out to a certain point, you'd hit a stopper. β Or even outside of this on the bar, on the kite side, our kites were bridled. And when the kite would get to a certain angle of attack, the bridles would β sort of get to a fixed point. And so there would be a, could, as a designer, you could,
Daniel Paronetto (58:17)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (58:45)
have a prescribed amount of angle of attack change on the lower angle of attack side. Now with the yoke on the bar, it's performing that same function. And interestingly, just like our kite started with a bunch of pulleys, everything was moving and kind of sloppy and moved towards fixed bridles, it was that same process. I don't know why I started with moving parts initially on the yoke. β
the travel on it, got shoulder and shoulder until it's like, wait, actually this is the perfect point that's doing the whole job, different jobs at different angles of attack. So having that fixed β function is also of huge effect. At any rate, so we're now getting that β stability and control from the wing like we did in the kites on the sheeted outside. One opportunity for the future and I haven't.
Daniel Paronetto (59:19)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (59:44)
gone anywhere close to the solve for this yet, so to all the designers and DIY guys out there, is on the shooting inside. β We still have to the point, know, our kites we'd hit the stopper and we wouldn't stall our kites and back them out of the sky. With a para wing it's still possible to do that. Now there are some tricks and workarounds to that like the inflatable.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:04)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:00:13)
Do they even call it a power wing or the F1? Yeah. So, but I think part of the reason that that can be so user friendly is like the more you pull it on the back, just the more C it's going to become, you're not going to get that same direct angle of attack control. So you're not going to get the same stall effect. Things just kind of squish and move.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:16)
don't know what they call that. Yeah, the plume.
Hmm.
Greg (1:00:40)
differently than something that's so supported by bridles where it's just like everything you do is going straight into the wing. So there's an opportunity for the future.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:46)
Yeah, that's cool.
I like that. And a lot of people in this industry, in this industry that are riding the parawings, they're all tinkerers. know, the Facebook group is off the hook with people messing around with pair wings and doing all sorts of things. What are some things that you tinker with when you're out there that people can start to explore as well to like personalize their gear for their personal needs?
And I think the big one is like bridling. Like bridling is so hard and I see people touch the lines and I'm like, God, you really want to be touching those. β How much can you mess around with that stuff, Greg?
Greg (1:01:28)
There are some things you can make pretty big changes and not have huge effect and there's other areas where a millimeter here or there makes all the effect in the world. β But I think going forward, it'll be both. β Like on my kites for example, in later generations.
I moved from offering a product, you know, the industry standard was to have some tuning adjustments here and there. But I was never the kind of writer I'm like, like I had the setting I liked and didn't fiddle with the other, you know, didn't change the setting for a different writing application. And so I'm like, just give me, you know, the kite the way it's designed to work best. You know, I don't need options to mess it up. And so.
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:23)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:02:26)
β the first few years of my product, it's like, okay, I'm gonna tune this thing to be perfect and that's it. Later, I started adding options because like, wait, not everybody's using it for a hydrofoil? Okay, well you really wanna ride a surfboard on this thing, here's a different setting for that, because it's just such a completely different need. And the feedback I got is people were like, well, if I move this knot, it does what? And this other knot does this other thing and do I move them together? It just creates all this crazy confusion.
So I'm hesitant to create too many tuning options in the parawings because I think it'll potentially create confusion and this and that, unless it can be done in a super clear way. But having said that, there are opportunities to tune things differently that right now we make to three different models and like, okay, what if I wanted a wave setting or a downwind setting or...
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:01)
Hmm.
Greg (1:03:25)
something else. So I think things will trend in that direction. But in terms of like the gear currently, board riding now has two generations out and there are starting to be some gear hacks that are super interesting. β On the first generation, Maliko, one of the early questions I got from people was, what happens if I move the B lines, the center connection on the bar?
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:52)
Hmm.
Greg (1:03:53)
And people were like, oh, move forward, move it back, this or that. And I was like, mm, I don't recommend changing it. Still some people did it, this and that. I've only recently started to revisit that, and I'm super excited about the results. I did it because people were saying, can I get a second generation bar and yoke and put it on my first generation? And yeah, so for me, my answer to that is I think it's completely...
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:16)
Interesting.
Greg (1:04:23)
possible in theory. I don't think there's anything about this design that wouldn't lend itself toward the first generation being configured in the same way. I just haven't done the work though. I was on a singular path working in a forward direction for the second generation and just haven't gone back to try to do that work on the first. But in starting to explore that with people like what would be the easiest do I need to create a bar and a kit and all this stuff.
β And then how are people going to be able to put that together and are people going to want to like invest in that and like what are the best choices how to help out and The coolest thing people can do right now is you get your fronts middles and back a B's and C's β If you leave your B's and C's where they're at I Mean the relationship between each one β
has very different effects and I mean even the A's to the C's and A's to the B's and the B's to the C's but at any rate leave your B's and the C's where they're at and just move your A's back. It has a phenomenal effect on the first generations. β It sort of taps into some of what the yoke is doing on the second generation which is that when you sheet your bar out the B's aren't lengthening quite as much β so you're... β
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:32)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Greg (1:05:49)
you're getting far more stability there. But you still have the relationship between the B's and the C's, so you're not disrupting the profile shape there, you're not initiating stall, you still have great steering. The other thing it does is the amount of real estate between the A's and the B's β on the original bar or the original setting is it's super sensitive to your hand position. So if you're a little bit forward or a little bit back, it can go from like,
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:56)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:06:18)
Well, let's say on the backside, it'll quickly go to stall. And if you're too far forward with a distance between the two, it'll quickly get to a point of instability. So it's super sensitive that way, but I move them so it's just a bit more than a fist width apart. And now you're not really teetering between the pull of the A's and the B's, you're kind of locked on between them. This gets this really great feeling. So it's stable.
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:22)
You
Hmm.
Greg (1:06:47)
You still have all the steering and responsiveness. It's pretty money.
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:52)
That's a great hack. love that because, and I do that with my parawings as well. I ride a pair of wing that's super heavy on the front lines and I just wanted that center, the balance point of the bar to be different. So it's not that tiring on the hands and I think the bars initially they were all very big. So I love the small bar that you did with, you know, the ability to ride with two fingers beyond the A lines.
makes total sense for me, β for the power wing and I see other brands coming out with these bars that are very intricate. don't think you need much. think you just, I like the simplicity of your stuff, man. I like no pulley systems. I like, you know, just, just making it work without all that extra stuff is probably so much harder, β than adding all these bolts and whistles. And then it kind of just does what it does. But, β I see a lot of people.
in on Maui just chopping their lines β like nine and a half inches and they all ride the same brand. And so I'm wondering if it's brand related, but nine and a half inches is just, it's such a, it's huge. So what does smaller lines give you β if you wanting to do that alteration to your pair of wing?
Greg (1:08:17)
What do short lines give you? Is that the question?
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:20)
Yeah,
what would that alteration, what's the performance enhancement of the shorter lines? Is it just better responsiveness or what does it give the power wing? Why is everyone doing that? And it's not with the BRMs, it's a different brand. So BRM owners don't start chopping your lines. But I was just curious about why is everyone doing that and everybody's loving it.
Greg (1:08:43)
Yeah, so I had to make sure I was clear on the question and think about it. I feel like the only feedback I've gotten for people on the board riding Mali gear is on the first generation and on sizes larger than four. It was the case on the first generation board riding Mali, the Malikos, that the bridle length was proportional to the wing size. And so.
Each size wing had its own length and the four to pick one was sort of an arm's length away. It wasn't like fully maxed out but it was getting there and people were like, okay, the five one just pushed it over the edge. It's a little bit out of reach. Now that's not to say that you can't and that people don't ride with much, much longer but as you said earlier, then you're kind of like...
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:25)
Mm.
Greg (1:09:39)
having to take two shots at it, there's different taxes on that experience. But longer lines, as I said earlier, for me, will give me a little more low end power. so getting into lighter winds and that's when you're be riding a bigger wing size, longer lines can start to make sense. Going shorter, why would people do it? Well, one, might just make...
it easier to retract the wing and stow it, put it away. It's a convenience thing. It's a speed thing. And that makes sense. But you might be trading some low-end power. So you might not be getting all that low-end range out of your 5.1 that you do on a slightly longer line. So it's sort of a trade-off of riding priorities.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:31)
And Greg, I really want to have your take on what do you think is coming next? Where is parowinging going? I think it's going to be a huge summer this year in the US and Hood is going to be just filled with parawings. How do you see the sport growing this year and beyond?
Greg (1:10:51)
A fun question to think about, to visualize. I certainly don't have a window into it. I'm a gear guy. I just love playing with the gear. Where it goes from there is in the larger community's hands. I'm glad that the idea has resonated with people like yourself, just having so much fun with it, exploring it, taking it to different places that nobody imagined.
My head's just down working on β ways to make the experience even easier. β
Already, you know, I said earlier that I'm completely dissatisfied and there are areas where I'm still working to make massive improvements, but I am Super happy with β How quickly they open how quickly they deploy like how user-friendly that can be it still blows my mind β a lot of the things they can do β
the watery launch, the neutral buoyancy, all the things that opens up. feel like it's already at a place that, β yeah, I mean, you mentioned you still maybe have some kiting β in your arsenal for certain conditions or versatility, this and that. β I feel like I do in my heart, but in reality, Parawinia is kind of all I do at this point. I did go through a phase. β
shortly after β creating the yoke for the second generation, that I was like, β snap, I could make a kite out of this thing. β Which takes me back to my early explorations in the single skins that was a part of the fuel for what became a parrowing later.
Daniel Paronetto (1:12:38)
Here we go.
Greg (1:12:52)
paragliding world came onto these as best I understand, I'm not an expert at it, but I think the single skins came into the paragliding world around the same time I was making a strutless kite, which was kind of way out there. And then once I became aware of those, the single skin paragliders being now used on the snow and then starting to be used on the water, I wasn't that interested because I wanted to ride in such a way that relaunch was a no-brainer.
meeting all of my performance needs on a kiting side. So it was β much, much later before I had a look at, well, how are these things working? What's the magic to make this thing stable in the absence of any inflatable structures or double scan or what all is going on here? But the single deal killer for me on them, like, yeah, they could relaunch okay, and they do all, they drift super nice and there's no pump and there's a lot of upsides, but...
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:37)
Hmm.
Greg (1:13:51)
the all the sliders and pulleys and all the heavy hard parts were such a magnet for line tangles that it blew my mind that as many people were using them β for water application because I'm like I mean the stuff we're doing launching and landing and everything like that these things just turn into a knot they're terrible β so that's that's why I wasn't going there on the kite side
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:01)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
nightmare.
Greg (1:14:21)
But β in paragon, having the A, Bs, and Cs all connected directly to a bar with sort of a crude initial starting point of making this thing work like, okay, I'm just moving the whole angle of attack of the wing, nothing in any different ratio. At any rate, the yoke, it's like, wait. This is making it such that it's eliminated those need for those moving parts. So I have... β
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:38)
Hmm.
Greg (1:14:51)
redesigned the basic power wing platform and turned it into a kite fly on kite lines. And it's wholly there. It totally works. It's pretty neat. I don't even know what your question was why I started talking about all this. But maybe the question of the future. don't know.
Daniel Paronetto (1:15:11)
Yeah, we are like, saw the other day some boys racing in Europe and I'm like, Oh, mean racing, even though I'm not a fan of racing, um, I always feel that racing takes the industry into this high development space, like formula one kind of style, like, you know, better materials, better everything. Um, and then I interviewed Elliot LeBeau the other day for the podcast as well.
And we were riffing on ideas. So like, if we are going to do a race, what is a power wing race look like? Um, and we came up with this cool concept of doing like a two and a half kilometer course. So very short, but people can see. he can actually see two and a half case pretty easily, but you would have to start the race, go upwind two and a half case, and then do a downwind run for those two Ks and maybe do like five laps of that. That would be if I were going to race power winging.
That's the way to do it because it incorporates everything about the parawing that we love, right? So it's kind of keeping true to the sport. β and Elliot was, β man, Elliot is such a, an encyclopedia for knowledge on everything, isn't it? It was a great talk with him and there were so many nuggets in that talk. He said that you and him are pretty close and he's been kind of giving you a lot of feedback on the, on the parawings. How's that relationship gone?
Greg (1:16:34)
β it's amazing. Elliot was a part of the OG crew here on Maui. Elliot and Lou, I mean, that was like one word. It wasn't Lou or Elliot. was just Elliot and Lou and what are they doing today? And I knew what a talent he was as a rider, as an athlete. β But it was until recently, getting his feedback on the power wings that I was like, my gosh, he's a total gear guy. He just loves.
geeking out on this stuff and tweaking and tuning and it's crazy. He's super cool. When you mentioned the race concept, I was wondering if you were going to say it's the upwind lap and then that it's going to be a requirement that you put it down and pump and connect the bumps for the downwind leg, this and that. that also brings me back to their point about what's the future. I when I started doing this parawing thing and like, okay, put it out there and saw all this interest.
I'm like, wow, I can't wait to see a brand with racing DNA take this on and what they're going to do with it. if I'm to be honest, it's been a little disappointing to see so many following sort of a similar format. Because I feel like, oh, man, that racing thing, I'm not a racer, so I'm not going to be the guy to invest time and energy making a product for that.
Daniel Paronetto (1:18:00)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:18:02)
but where the kite foil racing, I mean, I was gonna say left off, but it's still a thing, it's still an Olympic class, the whole thing. I the lines on those went from, I mean, going from inflatable wings to foil kites, and then the lines just kept getting shorter and shorter and shorter, and so once the power wing thing got out and people were talking about this and that, they're like, oh, can you go up wind? I'm like, this is basically the, like, of this shared DNA of kite foil racing.
Daniel Paronetto (1:18:30)
Mm-hmm.
Greg (1:18:31)
This is like not like is the performance okay? Like this is the top performance in that class. So yeah, I think that's gonna go crazy.
Daniel Paronetto (1:18:40)
Look, think it's, it will, it will.
And I think it's just a testament of how good of a product you put out there, mate, because everyone needs to have something that does what your pair of wing does in their lineup, if they're going to be competitive this year. So they will start doing different things. And I think, you know, the, racing brands, we, we, we, know who they are. They will start getting into that point, but if we still have.
A wave riding, downwind version and an upwind downwind version. I'm going to be happy. So Greg, β I'm conscious of time. I know you have a hard stop today. β So is there anything else that you want to add to this discussion that we haven't spoken about β that you might want to tell our audience?
Greg (1:19:29)
β I mean, we could go for hours and hours and hours and just talk. mean, it's all such good stuff, but there's nothing from my side other than thank you for having me on. Great to meet you in person. Super appreciate it.
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:43)
Yeah, Greg, thanks. β and look, open, hopefully we can catch up again when you launch your V3s in two or three weeks time, you know, it's not going to be too long. Knowing you, you're going to come up with something pretty quick. but yeah, thank you for coming on. Thank you for what you've done to the industry. Thank you for pushing and being the person that you are. Just this natural crazy scientist that just developed something that now we can all enjoy. And, β with, since your V1, man, you nailed it with that one already.
β And I can't wait to see what you guys are going to continue to create.
Greg (1:20:17)
Thank you so much.
