Daniel Paronetto (00:11)
Welcome to the lab rat for the podcast. My name is Dan and today we have with us Dom Zimmerman, the designer of the pocket rocket and Dom, it's a pleasure to have you on board, man. Everybody's been expecting the pocket rocket to hit the market and it's finally here.
Dom (00:30)
Yeah, thank you for having us, having me. And hello, everyone.
Daniel Paronetto (00:33)
Yeah,
no worries. Dumb. β I always like to start the podcast, understanding a little bit about people's backgrounds, where they come from. You know, β it's, it's really interesting to, for us to hear your history in sports and the life journey that, you know, led you to become a designer at such a reputable brand like ozone.
Dom (00:56)
Yeah, I think we have to go back for about 20, 25 years by now when tiding actually came up. And I came across it through a friend of mine. And when I was actually, it was in 1999, 1999. Yes, that's a while ago. And ever since, it's just been always in my life. I started competing in...
snow kite races, in kite buggy races. I went around the whole globe for kiting and obviously at some stage met up with the people from Ozone. I got a job with them, started off as a sales rep in Germany for Ozone kites. And through the development or through my racing career with foil kites, I started helping Rob with the development of
and then later on into the water kites as well. then obviously a few years ago, the wings came across. yeah, we naturally born into the position and into the sports here.
Daniel Paronetto (02:10)
And do you also foil?
Dom (02:13)
I do everything, All disciplines we're doing.
Daniel Paronetto (02:16)
Yeah. How did you get into
foiling? Was it through kiting or winging?
Dom (02:22)
Yeah, I got into foiling through kiting like probably most people did back in the days when we were working on the race kites. Back in the days was the inflatable tube kite, the Edge. And then later on, we developing the first foil kite made for racing, the Chrono. And yes, foiling came along and obviously we went from the big, heavy, long finned race boards onto our foils and ever since foiling...
Daniel Paronetto (02:41)
Mm.
Dom (02:52)
It's been an amazing challenge and it keeps on growing, isn't it?
Daniel Paronetto (02:57)
Yeah, absolutely. What
kind of foils were you guys using back then? Were they like raised foils or something a little bit with bigger square meterage square centimeter, sorry.
Dom (03:06)
No, no,
I remember we had one old lift foil and then also the first mic slabs that came along. Once we had to go onto the testing race cars, needed the fastest foils.
Daniel Paronetto (03:12)
Mm-hmm.
nice.
Not bad to start with some Mike Slavs foils. They're obviously great foils. Yeah, that's awesome.
Dom (03:28)
Oh, well, you've to challenge yourself sometimes, And even the
other foils weren't that great, too. The mics were actually quite good foils.
Daniel Paronetto (03:37)
Yeah.
Amazing. And when did you see the para wing for the first time? When did you first laid eyes on something that resembled a para wing?
Dom (03:49)
was funny because since we did the inflatable wings and we started these in think 2018 when the winging came up and after a few years we were thinking and brainstorming within our team a little bit. Thinking what could we do next and obviously I think that's when the whole downwind scene grow quite a lot.
Daniel Paronetto (04:13)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (04:15)
And you know, the forest got more efficient, the boards got better, so people were downwinding a lot and you were like, what could be the next thing? Something retractable would be actually quite nice. And we had that in our mind, but we didn't really pursue it. We did a few prototypes two years ago, a bit of a different system as the powerings are now, but didn't really put so much emphasis into it just because everything else kept us so busy.
Daniel Paronetto (04:25)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dom (04:44)
And yeah, basically when we saw the first BRM out there, we were like, β yeah, that's probably a good way to go about it. And then we were looking what β the market was taking it and if it's actually becoming something feasible and worth developing. And then we started to.
Daniel Paronetto (04:58)
Yeah, absolutely.
Mmm.
Dom (05:13)
Like a year ago, probably we started the development of the first power wings ourselves and then obviously had to learn the sport ourselves. wasn't really, neither of us was really into downwinding much. So we started off ourselves learning the sport, having a few prototypes, trying to work on that. So developing all our own skills as well as the products.
Daniel Paronetto (05:41)
That's really cool to, to, because you, you as a designer, there's nothing better than actually doing what you need to do with the product that you're designing to actually learn from it. So how long did it, did it take you to figure out how to downwind and get comfortable with it? It's not an easy thing to learn.
Dom (06:00)
It's actually not, no, I'm surprised how hard it is. But with a wing, I'm good with anything that I've got in my hand with like a propulsion in my hand, that's quite easy. Free-flowing, I still wouldn't say I'm solid, but I don't know if you could ever say that, but I'm still learning. I still prefer riding with a sail.
Daniel Paronetto (06:02)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (06:29)
some kind of form, to be honest. And especially here in Mauritius, our downwinding isn't amazing because the winds are usually really strong. But we do have a good wave we are hitting. So we're backing the wing on the waves and then just free surfing the waves. And go back up again.
Daniel Paronetto (06:30)
Yeah, I'm always curious to...
How, um, I'm, always curious to, to like, to be a little fly in the wall of a board meeting at ozone and you guys discussing like, need to do a pair of wing. How did that decision come about? Because you guys obviously have kites, wings, boards, foils, like, how did you actually incorporate that in the plan for 2025 or actually, you know, end of 24, how did that conversation go?
Dom (07:11)
you
We just, I think it was just natural that customers, you know, we've got a wide customer base and they, you know, everyone knows we do paragliders, folkytes and so on. So it's just like a natural step for us to be in that market as well with all our knowledge and with the ability to produce these kind of wings easily in our own factory. So it was, it was a big.
Daniel Paronetto (07:39)
And the
Mmm.
Dom (07:48)
request actually and then we thought like people actually want they asking for it so there's a big demand in that market because there wasn't much available back then obviously it's getting more and more now but remember a year ago there was like one or two brands out there probably having something
Daniel Paronetto (08:06)
Yeah.
Yeah. I'm, I'm, I love to hear that story about what kind of validation do you need? You know, is it, it's customers really just sending you guys emails saying, Hey, when is your version coming out? And you're like, all right, we need to actually move the needle on this or it's so hard to have that foresight of what will become a thing in foiling because sometimes things that, you know, initially don't have too much gravity to the
Dom (08:28)
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (08:33)
pick up momentum. And I think the wings were like that to many people who foiled. When you saw the wing, a lot of people were a bit hesitant, but now it's probably the major form of foiling out there. The most accessible, the easiest to learn, where probably everyone starts. You know, if you want to have an easier time to get on foil. And with para winging being so new, I'm always curious to,
Say like how much support from the brand was like, yes, let's go for it. Let's try. Because I think that's what's driving foiling industry as a whole, ability to innovate quickly, ability to just jump on an idea and roll with it because we don't know, right? What we don't know. β And this is more to give you guys props at Ozone being such a big brand to launch something so quick to the market and something that's working so well.
Dom (09:27)
Well, was pretty much everyone within the team was behind it. We just, you know, we had a team meeting. got a lot of demand, people asking, requesting it. And we were like, OK, there's actually this is something growing and something that's there for good, probably. It's the next thing that comes up, you know, beside the wing. So we all agreed, yeah, OK, we want to be in that market. We've got a lot of knowledge.
Daniel Paronetto (09:49)
Hmm.
Dom (09:57)
It's kind of a no-brainer, even though it took quite a while to get through to something workable.
Daniel Paronetto (09:59)
Mm-hmm.
And where did you guys start? obviously with paragliding background, ram, kites in your, you know, lineup of gear, where did you guys like drew the most inspiration from to start the design of the Parawing?
Dom (10:21)
Because we already have a single skin kite in our range for the snow kite market, which is called the Explore, we could use a lot of knowledge from that design, which is designed by my colleagues too. And so we basically took that as a base or reference and worked backwards and made it workable first of all for water and then
Daniel Paronetto (10:29)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (10:51)
heroin sector.
the lines and everything needed to be different. Say again.
Daniel Paronetto (10:54)
How hard was it?
How hard was it
to make it work?
Dom (10:58)
It's more challenging than I was thinking it will be. β Single skins, because they have no internal pressure and no real structure to it, it's just a sail and then you've got a few lines spanning it. β There are quite a few parameters that need to get the right to having it performing as you want it to be.
Daniel Paronetto (11:10)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (11:27)
Yeah, it's quite challenging. also the foil is because you're pushing quite hard into the wind with the foil and the power wing. And you want to be able to ride it overpowered without having anything collapsing. So stability was a big β factor for us because that's what we saw on the wings out there on the market that I don't think they were really refined on that sector. We saw a lot of wing.
Daniel Paronetto (11:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dom (11:56)
in still when you depowered it and stuff so we were really trying to focus on you know getting that thing stable as we can.
Daniel Paronetto (11:59)
Yep.
What was the form that you guys chose to test it? You have a team of test riders that were going out with it. β How do you translate that information coming from, know, riders that on the water can do a lot more than what most average foilers can. And how do you adapt that information coming from a pro rider to actually say, okay, how do we make this work for the everyday foiler?
Dom (12:31)
We are quite fortunate that we just added two amazing new people to our R &D team, which is Axel and Connor, they were race athletes in the Olympics. So they really know how to push on foils and go hard and send it as hard as probably no one else really can. with their ability to test things to the max.
Daniel Paronetto (12:44)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (12:59)
and ourselves all being decent enough foilers into the sport for a long time. We knew where we needed to be going and obviously we got a capable team of five people in the R &D team. Everyone's foiling, everyone's doing all the sports across all our β sectors. So it was pretty...
Daniel Paronetto (13:21)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (13:27)
you know, the team is amazing, it was pretty easy actually to do the testing. But yes, it still requires, you know, the right conditions at the right time and so on.
Daniel Paronetto (13:39)
And especially with the power wing having a smaller performing range than a wing to actually get that right, I think is probably one of the hardest things to actually go out when the conditions are good to test whatever sizes of pair wings you have to test. Where did you guys do most of the testing? Was it Mauritius or just all over the world?
Dom (13:55)
Totally, yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, most of our testing is here in Mauritius where we base ourselves most of the time a year. Just because it's very efficient here, it's easy. There's the beach. You can drive very close to the car to the beach. It's got one of the best ways for kiting, a really good way for for winging, para winging, shallow waters. You can do it downwind. So it's very efficient for us to.
Daniel Paronetto (14:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (14:31)
do the big range of products we are having to test everything in one spot. And so most testing happened here, also in the south of France through the winter, where Axel was based. And it's not far from where I'm basing myself in Switzerland through the winter. So I just bombed down there in β bit colder temperatures. But still, we got some good storms and stuff, especially for testing the smaller sizes.
Daniel Paronetto (14:38)
Absolutely not a bad place to live.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (15:01)
Quite efficient, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (15:03)
What, let's get into the Pocket Rocket then. So tell us a little bit about what are the main characteristics of the Pocket Rocket Paralleling. What does it do really well?
Dom (15:14)
That's pretty much up to everyone else to discover, but what we really focused on, as I said before as well, is the stability when fully depowered. We didn't really want to have anything collapsing on you because that's just creating a lot of drag, pushing the whole wing further back into the wind window, creating more lateral pull again. So the stability was...
Daniel Paronetto (15:38)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (15:43)
the major thing we worked on after that, obviously having a β good amount of range in the wing. I think our top end is quite good. β The bottom end, it can always be better, but I think we're quite decent compared to other wings. I'm not sure if you tried it yet, but.
Daniel Paronetto (15:55)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (16:10)
I can confirm that because I β only have a handful of other brands wings and tested so far. I can't talk about every single wing out there. yes, that's pretty much it. Obviously, the feeling that you get a good store point so you know when you're of oversheating it and it's losing the drive. think it's all little bits and pieces.
Daniel Paronetto (16:11)
very close to trying it.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (16:39)
I would say stability really was the main focus for us.
Daniel Paronetto (16:44)
I have a number of characteristics that I kind of. Judge pair wings on when I'm writing them. I might just go through them to see how, β the, pocket rocket fits in. So stability is the first one that I always, yeah. Stability is the first one that I always look at. and you mentioned that one. β and I think, I think now if you're launching a pair of wing into the market,
Dom (16:58)
That's very interesting,
Daniel Paronetto (17:10)
Um, and you don't have that inherent stability of being able to ride on the front lines on the airlines and releasing the power and, to, to as much as the power wing can release power, you're a little bit behind. So I think, you know, starting with that is amazing to hear. Um, the second element that I have here is the stow ability. How easy is it to stow the pocket rocket?
Dom (17:33)
β Again, it's pretty easy if it requires a bit of getting used to and a technique, probably just as any other wing as well. It probably could, any para wing could be easier to pack if you wouldn't have to use plastic reinforcement buttons along the leading edge, but they do help a lot with the stability. So we tried a lot.
Daniel Paronetto (17:55)
Hmm.
Dom (18:02)
without because we wanted to them to be able to stow easier and pack easy and you can fold them. But in fact, if you have the right technique with the leading edge plastics in there, it's still quite easy to You're it by the A line and you're gathering all the cells next to each other and then stuff it in. So it's
Daniel Paronetto (18:29)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (18:31)
Yeah, you probably wouldn't bundle it up as much. it takes a bit of more maintenance or careful packing, especially at end of your session, making sure all the concertina packing, the ribs onto each other. But it's actually not that hard once you've got the right technique.
Daniel Paronetto (18:39)
Hmm. Constantina packing kind of. Yep.
Nice look and I don't expect to to pair wings to perform in all of these areas because it is a compromise right so if you're β if you have a 10 out of 10 in your stowability you might lose a little bit of the stability because you won't have those β little plastic bits in the leading edge and things like that but it's interesting to hear where did you guys compromise a little bit and where did you really want it to double down
Dom (19:13)
you
Daniel Paronetto (19:22)
and put, you know, 100 % effort into. The next one that I have here on my list is upwind ability. And I think that will kind of tie in with the stability of the Parawing as well.
Dom (19:34)
It does go hand in hand really. The further you can fly or the further the powering wants to fly into the edge of the wind window, the better is the upwind ability. And also I don't think you need crazy upwind ability. Yes, it's a nice feature and good to have. And I think we are doing pretty well also. We do have a quite...
Daniel Paronetto (19:36)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (20:03)
you know, compared to others as well. It's quite performant wing, I'd say. We do have a lot of cells and ribs and so on. It's not built super basic as you could probably build a simpler one β as we did. But this was a good compromise. There's still good performance, upwind ability and stability as well. And to add on to your question before the packability.
Daniel Paronetto (20:10)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (20:32)
We have been opting for a very light β cloth. So obviously the lighter the cloth, which comes in with 32 grams per square meter, which has been used in our power gliders and folkytes. So that's pretty much the lightest cloth you want to be using, I would say, at the moment. And because it's very soft and has a good silicon coating.
Daniel Paronetto (20:38)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (21:00)
it packs super easy so you feel it's not stiff or anything it's very soft and packs nicely and easy
Daniel Paronetto (21:07)
That makes a huge difference. That's the ease to get that air out and just let it breathe a little bit rather than having that crispy feel of a kite to it. It makes it very bulky in that pack down. Then why don't you, like, let's talk a little bit about the low end again. You know, when we're talking about styles of pair of wings, I think that depending on what you want to do with the pair of wing, if you're just a pure downwinder,
Dom (21:10)
It does.
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (21:37)
You probably want a lot of low end so you can get out on a very small pair of wing and not have to have something big. Um, how did you guys, um, end up in your low end power with the pocket rocket? Um, and you can maybe even tie that into, let's say if I'm on a rider with 80 kilos, I think that's a good average for people to get their hand heads around 80 kilos and the 4.3. Is it a 4.3 that you guys have or a 4.2?
Dom (22:01)
you
Yeah, 4.3. And the 5 is the biggest one, actually.
Daniel Paronetto (22:09)
4.3 and the five is the biggest one so
with because I think the four meter is is probably what like 50 % of the people will buy for you know that 15 to 20 knots kind of range is that where you guys are finding the ranges for an 80 kilo rider for that four three
Dom (22:29)
Yeah, it's either that or even the next size down, which is a 3.6. Personally, I'm 70 kilos and I'm riding the 3.6 from 12 to 30 knots up to 25, whatever, quite easily. yeah, an 80 kilo rider. And, you know, it depends so much on the boards and on the foils you're using, obviously.
Daniel Paronetto (22:35)
Nice.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, nice.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (22:59)
If you have a good accelerating board, downwind board, whatever, you need less power from the wing. If you add a bit of pumping technique to it, you get going in literally no wind, if you want so. But one thing I think I want to stress to people is trying not to ride these power wings too overpowered in general. They're just nicer to ride within their wind range.
Daniel Paronetto (23:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (23:29)
If you are unsure, rather take the small sizes, maybe put a bigger one or two sizes up in the backpack if you go in for a mission. And we expect the wind to drop or whatever. But they're really fun in the range. If outside the range, there's just, because it's a single skin, there's lot of flapens. If you need to write them deep out all the time, they're not really fun.
Daniel Paronetto (23:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
look, it's, it's nice to talk about that because people coming from winging, for example, might expect a certain amount of range in, the gear, but the pair wings are not quite there yet. mean, in my, you know, this is a V one of everyone, right. And we're expecting the moon. and I think it's just worth mentioning that you might have to go with two sizes to fit within, you know, a range of one wing to be able to ride comfortably.
It's probably give or take five knots and you're out of that wind range, isn't it?
Dom (24:31)
It feels to be at the moment, yeah, I agree a bit with you. If you need to take two, I don't know. And it depends on what the people are expecting and want to be doing. If you're on a downwind mission and you're not trying to get upwind, then it almost doesn't really matter because you're just deploying the wing for a few seconds, isn't it, to get up on the foil. And then you're free to go.
Daniel Paronetto (24:44)
Mm.
Dom (25:00)
almost doesn't really matter. But if you're using the wing to go back upwind, the right size really does make it more pleasurable.
Daniel Paronetto (25:10)
Yeah, it's crucial.
Yeah. Um, and I like to talk a little bit about the, just how, like the thickness of material that you guys used. And I think that most, most brands are gravitating to that 32 grams. Um, personally, I feel that they could be a lot thinner for, for example, if you're using it for a downwind purpose and you're going to be using it for five, 10 % of your session.
the wear, the stress that you're gonna be putting on it because you're gonna be going downwind. They're not kites that are falling from 22 meters in the air on the leading edge. How thin can you go in your head? Do you think we can get to like 28 grams, 25? Like I wanna go as thin as possible with this material.
Dom (25:58)
Thank
Yes, potentially we will be going, know, there are ways to reduce it probably wouldn't make a lot of difference, you know, because you know, you're shaving off five, maybe we are able to shave off seven grams per square meter. It's not a lot of sale because it's a single layer already. There isn't there's really much.
Daniel Paronetto (26:21)
Mm.
Hmm.
Dom (26:32)
material there anyways, we do know and you know, through our longevity testing on the snow kites on the the on the paraplyders and foil kites, that that material is very good in longevity. So it's been, you know, tested in other products and proven. And who knows what the future brings, there is a limited amount of, you know, availability of lighter weight.
materials, like when you're going into the 20 gram sector, there's not that much available anymore. It becomes very difficult to produce that material. There's only two or three mills in the world that actually do that.
Daniel Paronetto (27:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, interesting.
Let's maybe just continue with two more things that I have on that list of parameters that I kind of go through when I'm analyzing a pair wing. β And I think they come.
Dom (27:28)
Yeah, true.
Daniel Paronetto (27:31)
together, they're kind of part of a similar thing. So one is safety and the other one is user
Dom (27:37)
again it comes with the stability the more stable a wing is the more safe it is and the more user friendly as well. Is it exceptionally safe to use? I don't know I can't answer you that question but a para wing is pretty safe tool anyway because if you're not using a leash you just let go and...
Daniel Paronetto (27:49)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (28:03)
whatever happens and the thing just flies down and waits on the water for you to be picked up.
Daniel Paronetto (28:09)
And things like having leading edge, a different color, different color bridles, β know, bar with different colors so people know where to hold. Those things are really helpful when someone has no idea what they're doing, just starting in the sport. And I think those are things that the pocket rocket comes with as well, doesn't it?
Dom (28:30)
It does indeed, yes. And I think that's where we had a profit that we knew what people needed after having a go on the first power wings and what they were missing on them. So we were already taking that feedback in. And we have a color-coded bar, we have color-coded lines, and a different colored leading edge as well. So you can easily find.
Daniel Paronetto (28:44)
Mm.
Dom (28:59)
which are the wing is upside down, which are the lines if you need to be sorting them. And on the bar as well if you relaunch, know, the red side is the upper side. It's where your airlines are attached. Easy. β
Daniel Paronetto (29:15)
those things are super helpful because when you're downwinding or you're trying to redeploy and you're just trying to stay on foil, the last thing you need is to guess what lines you have in your hands. So I think those things will become industry standards now and most pair wings that are new to the market now, they will probably all have those basic features, but it's kind of a must have, isn't it?
I'm seeing now some parowings come out with some pulley systems. And obviously you guys know a lot about pulley systems with paragliders. What's your take on adopting a pulley system with the parawing? Did you guys test that out at all?
Dom (29:56)
Yes, we did test that as well. We were a bit hesitant because it's a bit of a trade-off in usability and friendliness and usability because you have another pulley there that can get hooked around the lines if you're not carefully packing the bar. The benefits for at least our design on the Pocket Rocket wasn't really overweighing the
the extra hassle that you're getting with the pulley so we decided not to use one. But I can see where people are coming from and obviously you you're trying to always improve things or know making the next best whatever it might be but for us it didn't really make the difference.
Daniel Paronetto (30:28)
Mm-hmm.
For the further user that, or the listener that might not even understand that well, what a pulley system can do to the parawing. What benefit can it bring if done properly? What are the things that you can get out of a pulley system in the parawing?
Dom (31:08)
I think there's different systems, different setups of pulley systems out there now. I haven't looked at all of them close up, but what I can see is the pulleys, how some other brands are using it is you're the middle and the back lines if you want so in a ratio to the A's and not evenly. So you're of increasing the camber of the power wing.
Daniel Paronetto (31:33)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (31:38)
It can give you a lower stall point potentially and maybe also more stability when depowered. Stability in the canopy I'm talking about, like less flatter. That's maybe what I can see that it does.
Daniel Paronetto (31:51)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think there's a beauty though to something that's designed and it's simple. Cause I think it's probably harder to get it right without the pulley system in it, isn't it? Because the pulley system kind of, you can mask a little bit of the imperfections of whatever you're doing. So I think I'm all for a non pulley system, whatever you can have that is less, that gives you less tangles, less β ability to.
β stuff up or redeploy or something like that. β think people over time, they'll see that there's a beauty in the less is more concept with the parawings.
Dom (32:38)
the simplicity and less clutter obviously there is the nicer it might be. We're also paying attention to that on our kites. We don't have a pulley system on any of our tube kites and as you're saying yes it is kind of a simpler way to make things work.
Daniel Paronetto (32:43)
Yeah.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, do you, well, you got, guys have an amazing line of pro riders. Who, who are the guys and girls that are most excited about the pair of wing in your team?
Dom (33:14)
That's obviously Sint Baer on the ladies front and then we've been listening to John McKay, Nackt obviously and Johnny Heineken are our kind of go-to people at the moment for that kind of sport. They are out there doing all the new stuff.
Daniel Paronetto (33:28)
Mm-hmm.
And what, β what do you think, β you know, what's the feedback that they bring back? What, what is the parent pair wing unlocking for their writing that they weren't able to do before, or they were doing it, but not having as much fun.
Dom (33:52)
β Again, the feedback is just coming in now that the first wings are getting shipped out there to them and to the riders and they do feel like the Pocket Rocket is actually like the next, β you know, the V2 of Para Wings basically. It's been developed further than the Para Wings they've been riding before.
Daniel Paronetto (34:13)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (34:19)
gives them more upwind, gives them more deep power and stability. yes, it's been interesting to getting their feedbacks because just the time frame we had to bring that product to market was very short so we couldn't gather a lot of, you know, we couldn't send out lot of prototypes to people and get on the feedbacks and also us, you know, being quite competent riders within our development team.
Daniel Paronetto (34:40)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (34:49)
We're just like, yeah, we're just going to do that ourselves because time is short. But it's interesting. They're all enjoying it. They all think it's a really great product. And we're paying a lot of attention. If you're looking at the lines, they all splice. So there's no stitching where you can, no line in where you can.
Daniel Paronetto (34:57)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (35:15)
damage your hands while sliding up the bridle lines or hurt your hand. And that starts from the bar to the kite. There's no no stitching or no sharp edges. The bridle line diameter has been compromised in a way that we didn't go for the thinnest available or possible. But we used a 1.5 millimeter thick line just so it doesn't cut.
Daniel Paronetto (35:26)
Amazing.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (35:44)
your hand when you're sliding up, packing the wing stuff. there has been a lot of thought and feedback from these riders going into the product because they had the experience of what they were missing on the first versions of the other brands wings.
Daniel Paronetto (35:47)
Yeah, nice.
Mm-hmm.
Does a thicker line also help a little bit with the tangles? it like less prone to tangling in a way that is just really, really hard to pull it apart with thicker lines?
Dom (36:05)
you
Yeah,
that's right. The thinner the line is, the easier they tangle and harder to get knots or potential tangles out.
Daniel Paronetto (36:18)
Yeah.
Mm.
And, β what are these, pro riders doing at the moment? Are they down-winding? Are they taking the, β the
riding into waves? Where are they pushing the parawing riding?
Dom (36:40)
Well, I think most people still enjoy the downwind and the packing up or taking the power wing to places. I heard from John, he's just like, it's so easy now, he pedals through the onshore swell and then once he's behind the breaking point he ejects the power wing and off he goes. He couldn't do that with the inflatable wings before because
Daniel Paronetto (36:51)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (37:08)
he couldn't get out through the onshore β slop. and then, you know, looking further into what Kai is doing on the Parawings now, taking it to Jaws. β Yeah, it's... That's just the start. Yeah, it is, yeah. It's quite mind-blowing.
Daniel Paronetto (37:21)
That was insane. That video was insane.
What, what have you heard from Kai? Have you guys have any contact to that? Any feedback from him, from the pair of wing? Cause obviously when he, he got, think BRM back in the day, the first thing he was doing was backflips on it in the first couple of hours. So I'm sure he's going to take it where no one else has taken it before with this latest video of the jaws. But how, how is he feeling about the pair? he excited about it?
Dom (37:43)
You
He's very excited about it. I haven't heard too much feedback from him because he probably only got it last week. So he's just been busy out in the way. Yeah, exactly. It just seems like he's busy enjoying it so far and not jumping into the computer and sending feedback. because he's riding our kites as well, so yes, he always gets whatever in wings. So he always gets to ride whatever he wants. So yes, he was asking for a power wing.
Daniel Paronetto (38:01)
Mmm first week straight at the jaws
Dom (38:25)
And here we go. Yeah, here it is. Me too, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (38:27)
I'm so excited to see where he's going to take it. If he's
going to, yeah, like if it's going to be his main towing device now, because he doesn't have to rely on jet ski riders or anything. He is very fortunate to have an amazing team around them, but there's something about doing it yourself and not having a partner tow yourself in. yeah, I'm keen to see what he's, what he's going to do with this thing in the next six months.
Dom (38:44)
this.
Yeah, I'm sure it's going to open up a lot
more potential for these people as well to get into the bigger waves without β relying on jet ski driver and so on. All the logistics here.
Daniel Paronetto (39:02)
Yeah. And there's something
about these creative writers like, β like Kai, like Balsmuller that are just, they just have this creative energy in them that is almost unstoppable, you know? And he was probably one the biggest innovators in foiling when he first posted that video of him down-winding. β yeah, super keen to follow this journey with him now. β and surely he was, he's going to talk about it in his podcast at some point.
Dom (39:07)
Thank
Mm.
Definitely, yeah.
Mm. Not bad.
Daniel Paronetto (39:30)
β let's talk a little bit about your,
stowing belt. β Dom, think one of the, one of the things that I noticed that in the gear, if I were to, β give feedback to all of the brands, one thing that I think is, really well resolved yet is the stowing. Like how do we stow this properly and put it into something, a backpack, a belt, whatever, in a way that is fast and that
helps us redeploy it. And I think you guys have a very different take on your belt. Can you explain a little bit about how the belt came about, how it works?
Dom (40:08)
sure. Again, that project is coming from feedback from writers like Sintbaard and so on. Obviously, you want to have β some kind of device where you can stuff your para-wing away with and then keep free surfing. The idea came mainly from Sintbaard and she made some prototypes of
super elastic bags and stuff that she then wrapped around her waist and so on and we like, could do that as well and make it a bit more of a final product. right now it's just a waist belt, we're calling it stash belt actually, goes around your waist, has a bigger part on the back with a very elastic β mesh material on the outside.
Daniel Paronetto (40:39)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (41:05)
so you can extend that very widely, even the 5 meter fits in there. On the top you've got a Velcro closure, can either put the bar on top of your wing and then use the Velcro to hold the bar in place or the bar also fits within the elastic mesh pocket. So either or, another little detail we added onto it, we've got a little
Daniel Paronetto (41:09)
Nice.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (41:34)
pocket where you can add your hook knife into it to in case you're in trouble and you need to cut yourself free from the lines. You grab the hook knife, cut the lines off and free yourself from your deep trouble. It also works with our wings, wing foil hook from our wing β harness.
Daniel Paronetto (41:38)
Nice.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (42:02)
So it's just a little hood that you add onto the webbing and then you're using it as a very light and easy to use harness at the same time. So you're having the hook on the front of the webbing, you use a harness line to your bar and off you go, you're riding comfortably upwind on that thing.
Daniel Paronetto (42:25)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I when I saw
Dom (42:31)
It is actually, because it's quite wide on the back,
it's quite comfortable to β long times, quite good hands actually.
Daniel Paronetto (42:36)
Mm.
Yeah. when I saw the video of one of your distributors posting it, like just put putting a three meter into it, it felt like it was much faster to put everything into that belt compared to other belts out there. And that was my biggest gripe because when you're riding, you want to be able to open and just put something quickly in there. So keen to try that one as well. β from the shops here in, Australia, β and see how that goes.
Dom (42:55)
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (43:07)
But that looks probably like one of the better options when you were talking about a belt or a stowing device, because at the moment right now they, they're almost, they they they're okay. And I use them mainly just to have a second power wing, not to really stow it while riding. And I think that's something that we need something that we can still it quickly. β
Dom (43:21)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Where do you put β your first para wing if you have any second one in the stowing device? Do you just hold it in your hand? Is it your preferred technique? Yeah. That's what I like to do as well.
Daniel Paronetto (43:31)
What?
I just hold it. Yeah, look, I'm, if I'm doing, yeah, if I'm,
if I'm going on a downwinder, I want to get rid of it. And then I take the belt and I do a stow because then I have 20, 30 seconds to do it, but I'm riding for, you know, 30 minutes. So I get the benefit of spending that 20 seconds of putting it into the belts and then going on a 10 K run or 20 K run or whatever.
Dom (43:51)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (44:08)
Um, and then if I need it again, I'll just stop redeploy everything and you know, it's, fine. Now, if I'm doing a session where I'm doing hitting waves, or sometimes I'm just doing a session in a high performing spot here in the Bay where the bumps are, you know, a little bit, a little bit steeper and I'm just going up wind 500 meters and coming back. I don't stow it properly. I just hold it. I make sure that the lines are kind of. Tensioned when I'm writing. So I like to keep just.
Dom (44:14)
Thanks.
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (44:38)
a little bit of a stance where the lines, you know, are in tension. And sometimes I even put the bar with the power wing in one hand and then ride it depending on how, how good this, the stowing came, came out, you know? Um, and I think I get better results from that as well when redeploying rather than the full stow in the belt. I get 80%, 90%, um, percent, you know, success rate from those. So yeah, I only stash in the belt when it's.
Dom (44:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
Daniel Paronetto (45:07)
worthwhile doing it for at least a couple of Ks.
Dom (45:10)
Yeah, I'm pretty much the same as well. For a short wave ride it's not worth it really. The hassle.
Daniel Paronetto (45:12)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
And if we were to touch on the points of the product now, and obviously this is industry wide, not talking about the pocket rocket only, but where do you think the gear will improve the most in the next couple of years? Is it actually a lot of design work that's going to go into it? That's going to change things? Is it materials? What's the weakest point of the parawing right now in your opinion?
Dom (45:44)
To be frank, think it's the top end that's sacrificed right now by the single surface design. could imagine that that can get a lot better over time once there's more development going into this segment. And I would love to see that.
Daniel Paronetto (45:50)
Mmm.
Dom (46:11)
Probably the low end, like the whole range, like the range per size hopefully becomes bigger. And that means you probably can get away with less wings here. As you're saying, you you're only having two wings ideally, a smallish and a bigger one, bigger size, and that's all you really need. I think at the moment you still, depends how, what wind.
Daniel Paronetto (46:15)
the range. β
Mm.
Dom (46:36)
you want to be going but you're probably still good to go with three sizes at the moment so if you can you know correct that down to only having to use two sizes that would be I would like to see that yeah
Daniel Paronetto (46:41)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yep.
I think most people will need three for now. I agree with that. and I think a lot of wingers will have that in mind. There'll be like, I have a two wing quiver that I can get away with probably in most wind conditions. again, winging has a couple of years on pair winging, so we can just tell them to slow down a little bit and the development will catch up.
Dom (46:54)
Mm-hmm.
It does, and if you remember how
shit they were in the beginning, and how bad the range was in the beginning, like the top end was ridiculous as well, they were just flapping all over the place. I think, in a couple of years I'm sure we will be way beyond where we are now.
Daniel Paronetto (47:14)
Ugh.
Yep.
Hmm.
Yeah. Do you see people taking the pair of wings into like snow? think, you know, you have a really awesome team of riders. I'm keen to see what people can do on land with this thing as well.
Dom (47:33)
Okay.
Yes, could imagine that it will be actually quite nice if you're in a windy place for example for a snow kite school or something like that. Obviously it doesn't allow you to go climb uphill unless you're in a stormy situation. β With a kite and lines you're actually generating by doing loops and so on, generating a lot more power.
Daniel Paronetto (47:52)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (48:11)
which these power wings don't allow for. Will it be... I still think you need a bit of lines for this being on the snow depending on the wind conditions but usually it winds quite light on the snow. So... Yeah. Well, I don't know where it's going to take us and will... It's next year... I mean the snow season now is pretty much gone.
Daniel Paronetto (48:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Dom (48:39)
So we'll see what people are making use of it next season. On the snow and what else it can be used for, we don't know yet. I don't think we have explored all the limits.
Daniel Paronetto (48:44)
Mm-hmm.
No. Yeah, man. think so many disciplines will come from it as well. People will take it for down-winding. Other people just want to mow the lawn. Some people will want to do backflips on it. Some people will want to race. What do you think will happen in that racing scene? Do you think it's going to be a thing? The power wing racing?
Dom (49:04)
Mm.
I would believe so, yes. I don't know yet, but they can be, yes. But you're then almost down to where the kite racing is. Because the kite racers are using 10 meter lines, yes, okay, you cut that down to no where it is. But we'll see, yes. Racing has always pushed the sport.
Daniel Paronetto (49:16)
they can be very efficient.
A ram ram air parawing.
Dom (49:42)
I would assume once there will be events being organized and held that might become a more of a thing.
Daniel Paronetto (49:48)
Hmm.
Yeah. Do you
think like a Ram Air Parawing for your normal parawing riding, not racing in particular has any advantage?
Dom (50:02)
We tried that and so far no. Not at all. Apart from more racing performance, it's quite a handful to ride.
Daniel Paronetto (50:06)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
just too much power.
Dom (50:19)
too much hassle because it's inflated you can't pack it easily. β You write in there with the bridle lines and it's just they do have tend to have a bit more tension than on the single surface which is easy to collapse so you you're grabbing one line you can easily just deform the wing while if you're doing that on a ram air inflated wing each line has more tension to it.
Daniel Paronetto (50:23)
yet.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Dom (50:48)
and
It's an interesting way and we made a few sizes of prototypes of a RamF wing. So far, even, you know, races like Axel that I used to ride inflatable kites on short lines. It's like, yeah, it works, but it's kind of not really that fun.
Daniel Paronetto (51:05)
Hmm.
Yeah, it's funny because it's a
Dom (51:15)
The bottom end is missing a bit
as well, so you've got to go on big wings to get out and move in.
Daniel Paronetto (51:21)
Yeah.
It's one of the products that it comes alive and it's the best when it's not in use, isn't it? Which is a funny concept. You wanna get out, you wanna use it, but you have the most fun when it's not in your hands, when you're doing something with it that it's not even out there anymore. β But it is really where it allows us to go, right? I think as a writer, and when I started down-winding,
Dom (51:39)
You
Daniel Paronetto (51:52)
You know, my dream was to one day be able to do a prone downwinder, but that's a very hard thing to do that probably like a handful of people can properly say that they do it well. and the risks are just enormous. Once you go down, that's it. Right. So you have to be at a level of ability in your downwinding that you know, that you're very confident that nothing's going to happen. At least you're not going to fall. But with the parawing, it allows you to put yourself in that position.
with a very small board, with a very small foil and do something that was really unattainable. You know, like a year ago, nobody even thought about doing that, but now I see all my friends doing it. They're doing downwinders with 80 liter boards, 60 liter boards, 50 liter boards, incredibly small foils, 800, 900s. And that's what we all want, you know, the fastest, the smallest, it's the best feeling.
Dom (52:41)
Exactly.
I can't agree more. think it will open up the whole downwind scene a lot more. And as you say, we will see the boards becoming smaller again probably because you just don't need such a big board once you're out with the para wing. And you can ride smaller foils as well because all you get up and get onto the foil thing is becoming way less physical.
Daniel Paronetto (52:56)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (53:11)
And makes it more approachable for most people as well, isn't it? Because you know how hard it is to get up on a sock and paddle onto a swell. Fuckin' hell. So yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (53:12)
Yeah, I think my writing changed. Hmm. 100%.
I think, yeah,
look, that's exactly right. You know, like I think the journey of learning how to sup for me was really hard. I didn't have any supping experience. So I needed to learn how to do a J stroke from like the very beginning. And it took me six to eight months to be confident out there to know that I was going out and it wasn't like, β maybe I'll get up, you know, maybe I won't. And, and then when you tie that in with
Dom (53:36)
you
Yeah, exactly.
Daniel Paronetto (53:50)
having the right conditions and stuff. It's a very small window that you're actually doing the sport, so it's hard. And para-winging, it's much like kiting. When you do a kite session, you're on foil for 55 minutes out of an hour, which is amazing for your β learning curve. So I think that's what the para-wing will bring β people that are wanting to go down-winding, is that accessibility. Getting up is not an issue if the wind's there. β
Dom (54:02)
you
And it doesn't need
to be as windy as before for the Vatam winding. yeah, I can't agree more.
Daniel Paronetto (54:21)
No, 100%.
β let's talk a little bit about people that are just getting into the sport. I think that's very little information out there still about, okay, I received my power wing in the mail. I opened it up. What do I do with this thing now? What's your advice to people that are just getting into the sport?
Dom (54:28)
you
Because it comes ready to fly it's quite easy to just give it a go in a windy place. It doesn't even need to be on the beach. Yes, you want to be free of obstacles around you, but you can just fly it in the park even if you want to. Get used to the handling, get used to how it works. Definitely spend some time practicing on land. Flying the thing, keeping it up.
Daniel Paronetto (55:15)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (55:17)
installing it, packing it up, finding the right technique for yourself, how to pack it, how to stash it up and yeah, it's super safe, isn't it? I mean, I can't, and there's no, the good thing I was thinking about it this morning, it's like, you've got no leash attached to it, so you're super free as well and it's, yeah, it's very easy. They are the only down-taking.
Daniel Paronetto (55:30)
It is.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (55:45)
feature that thing has is all the bridle lines but once you get your head around them, how they are ordered and sorted, β with a color coded it's quite easy. The untangling takes a bit of time and understanding how it works but it's not that complicated at all.
Daniel Paronetto (55:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And you get, like you said, you get used to just being around lines. Like I started foiling with a kite and I had a kiting background before. So for me, lines, it's like, it's all my life. You know, you put, you're always setting up lines on the beach and sometimes you're untangling stuff, but people are scared of lines in general. what can you reassure them at all that, you know, about how the line systems work? I think it's very hard for you to have a
Dom (56:09)
you
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (56:35)
a situation where, you know, you're going to have a, you're going to be declawed by the, the lines like you potentially can in a kite because there's so much power in those lines for a kite, but the parawing, have to be in such overpowered conditions for something really absurd to happen. think.
Dom (56:41)
Okay.
And even then, if you are ending up with a line getting wrapped around your board or your foil or your foot, whatever it might be, because the structure is held by the lines, and as soon as you kind of catch in one line, whatever, the whole wing just collapses and loses all its power.
Daniel Paronetto (57:16)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (57:19)
So that's the advantage of that single skin design, that it's held by the line, all the tension and everything is coming from the lines. But as soon as you're just pulling one line, the whole structure of the power wing is gone. And it basically doesn't create any more pull whatsoever. it kind of flags out or just gets smashed on the water and everything is gone, isn't it?
Daniel Paronetto (57:20)
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, there
are people who are developing leashes for them. From what I'm hearing, I think you're not a believer in a leash for the parawing.
Dom (57:58)
We do offer a parawing leash if people feel, you know, and there might be spots where you prefer to have one. I don't know, you know, if it's maybe it's a very busy area where you're riding and you don't want, you know, other people to get hurt if in case you let it go and the parawing flies downwind of you a few meters and it's just very crowded or whatever. I personally think it's another
Daniel Paronetto (58:07)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (58:27)
It's another line that can get tangled around your bar and your lines and your power wing in case you're it on the way for downwinding. And it's not really a safety device because the safety there is, is letting go of the bar and then basically disconnect it and it's not like the thing is going to fly away. It's just going to fly a few meters downwind and be sitting on the water waiting for you to record again.
Daniel Paronetto (58:44)
Mm.
Dom (58:57)
So.
Daniel Paronetto (58:58)
Yeah, I think it might
even cause more damage sometimes because if something happens, I would rather not have any connecting points with the parawing and just let it go. Especially in a wave situation.
Dom (59:06)
Totally agree. But I see for some people, yeah,
yeah, wave situation. But I do see some people might prefer it if maybe you're not, I don't know, when it's cold and you can't grip your fingers, or you're getting cold fingers, can't grip as much, I don't know. β Kids, maybe, I don't know.
Daniel Paronetto (59:20)
Mm.
Yeah. But if you do need a leash, I mean, all you really need to do is have a connecting point to your harness, connect it on the brake lines and that's it. You don't have to have anything fancy in the bar or anything like that.
Dom (59:37)
you
we actually recommend to attach it to the front lines. because you're having less pull when you're on the front lines than when you're putting the leash onto your back lines, you kind of almost open stall the wing and it kind of sits in the middle of the wind window. Your leading edge could still potentially be open and pulling while if you just connect it to the front lines, it goes full D power and just flies to the edge of the wind window.
Daniel Paronetto (59:53)
to the front lines.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Yeah.
Dom (1:00:19)
and sits there and bounces on the water, depending on the design, but ours is just like sitting there on the edge of the wind window. It's like a full depower on a kite, pretty much.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:19)
And just, yeah.
I think it's interesting for us
to touch on that safety element because everything is very new. And I think with the parowing, you can put yourself in some dangerous situations. If you're a newbie and you're like, I'm going to go down winding and then you shoot yourself three kilometers into the ocean. And you know, there's a lot of things that can go wrong. β do you have any tips or anything, for people that are starting their down winding journey?
safety gear or anything that you think is worth them just thinking about before going out sending something to three K's offshore.
Dom (1:01:08)
Thank
Well, yeah, I think there's a lot. First of all, you do not want to get disconnect from your board, I suppose, because that's one of your safety device, a floating device. So obviously, wearing a leash. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:15)
Mm.
Dom (1:01:31)
maybe a floating vest or whatever, floating device on your body just to help you being afloat. Obviously, you need to be able to call rescue and get something happens out there, all that kind of stuff. A helmet, I think, never hurts really. I always ride the foils with a helmet personally.
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (1:01:56)
me feel better and I did get some on the head before so you only need one and it's like okay well guess what it's very easy to put a helmet on yes you know if you're going for big missions obviously you're going step by step and then I think that's the major part of you know approaching new
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:02)
Yeah, you just need one, right? And then you're like, yeah, I need a helmet.
Yep, absolutely.
Dom (1:02:23)
new sports and new things, is go step by step. Don't go full in and go out into the open ocean without knowing what you're doing, how to pack the wing properly, how to redeploy it, and so on. yes, if you know, if the forecast is showing the wind's dropping, you want to take a bigger size probably. It's always little bits and pieces. think people need to...
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:31)
Mm.
Dom (1:02:52)
go steady and learn as they go and what they personally need. Obviously hydration if you are out there for hours is another thing. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:02)
Those are great tips actually. All of those
are things that I think I learned all of them individually in the worst way possible. And now when I go out and it's something big, yeah, you have all those measures ready to go. We share location, we take our phones. We all have PLBs and all of those things. Thankfully I'd never had to use one, but in case of something drastic happening, like you said, you lose your board.
Dom (1:03:10)
You
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:31)
Your leash breaks, you can call rescue because that's probably the worst situation you can think about. have nothing to float on. And the parawing doesn't have anything inflatable. It's not a wing because the wing also helps you in that regard. β so definitely some good tips there. β
Dom (1:03:42)
Yeah.
And if you're floating, people need
to be aware, if you're floating without any device in the ocean, the only thing that sticks out of the water is your head and it's very hard to be seen by helicopters, by anyone really. It's just a little knob in it.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. But that's when we were talking about safety features of when I was talking about those, um, things that I look at when I look at a pair of wing, the color of the pair of wing is huge, is super important. You know, the brighter the color, it's probably the only thing that something someone can spot from a distance. So, um, I remember when I was riding the BRM, people were like, ah, it's so hard to see you out there, even from the beach, you know, because it's just, you just look like a white cap or something like that from a distance. But when you have, you know, some.
Dom (1:04:17)
you
bright colors.
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:38)
some colors that pop
and you guys all have colors that pop that I think are really good. That to me on its own is a design safety feature of the power wing. Being able to be seen out there is super important. And you guys are, I saw on the website that are you able to choose your colors as well? Like if I want to go on the website and I want a power wing in a certain color range, I can go there and do that.
Dom (1:04:42)
you
There's a certain amount of colors available that we have in stock and you can basically just create your own design on your para wing. So you can flick the colors around. I think the current design uses three different colors so you can either use three different ones, use the same one, whatever you like. It's quite nice.
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:12)
freaking love that.
my God,
as it sounds a little futile, but I love that stuff. Like if you're gonna buy something and like, is that something that's common in the paragliding world or is that something that you guys created just for the parawing?
Dom (1:05:39)
No, we do that on all kites and all our products basically. Every model can be customized with obviously the color palette that we do offer. can't do, you know...
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:42)
Wow.
Mm-hmm. Amazing.
Dom (1:05:53)
individual color choices runs because there's an MOQ you've got to order. But the different color combinations out of the colors we are having, there's a wide range of designs you can create your own wing from.
So it's quite interesting. And since we producing just in time, so there's a full order coming in from a customer that gets a slot in our factory. basically everything is made to order by our factory. we're producing a lot of stock. So yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:23)
Mm-hmm.
Amazing.
Mm-hmm.
Dom (1:06:35)
It's still a pretty quick turnaround. think the manufacturing time at the moment is 20 days or 25 days. Add another week of shipping to it and you'll have your wing within four weeks. Own design, Do it. Let's make you one. Even custom logos and stuff is all possible. For us, there's, you know.
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:42)
That's really good.
I a custom, like that. I might get one with the lab rat colors on it. I have a pink and white one. It's I love it.
That's amazing, That's
the first time I hear anybody offering something like that. So it's a surprise to me. β Maybe I'm not just in like as close to the Ram Kites or that kind of thing, because I didn't know it was a natural or easy thing to do even. That's cool.
Dom (1:07:14)
Mm.
It's not easy but it's because we're having our own factory and we have a special department focusing on custom designs. I think there's even a website we're running, it's like customkites.com or something. If not, you look at FlyoZone and in the menu there is a custom kite. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:07:23)
Mm.
cool man.
Yeah.
Dom (1:07:40)
page where you get all the information. If you're looking at Kyle's, β Kyle Lennie's wings, he's got the Red Bull logo in there and stuff. So we're doing all that kind of customization. It's a good feature, and it sets you apart from the rest.
Daniel Paronetto (1:07:47)
Mm.
stuff man.
Yeah.
What's your predictions for 2025 and para-winging? think this summer now in the Northern hemisphere, this thing's gonna blow up. How do you guys see it growing in 2025?
Dom (1:08:18)
That would be interesting to actually monitor what is going to happen as we see there's a lot more brands now pushing into that market which will help the sport to grow obviously and probably become a standing alone sport I would say. I'd say it's a side of the winging but I think it's actually becoming like a stand alone, products will become better and there will be more
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:35)
Mm.
Dom (1:08:46)
more development being allocated into that sector, I can see. So, it be interesting to see what it is. I can't predict anything, but I'm definitely seeing a huge demand. from, maybe the wing market will suffer from that, because I think a lot of people will switch from inflatable wings to para wings, just because it's something new and fresh.
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yep.
Dom (1:09:15)
it will open up more spots I would assume. β You can just pedal out into the wind line if you have to or whatever and β it's super easy. maybe the adventure side and exploration side of spots of long downwind trips or missions even, don't know, maybe more of that stuff will come up.
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:19)
Mm-hmm.
Dom (1:09:44)
just because it's so easy to pack, isn't it? So yeah, I can't wait to see what's happening. And then look at Kai who already pushed it to the next level now with going to draw. yeah, gosh, a surfer sees that. Okay.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:03)
Yeah.
Yeah, I like, I'd love to try to, I not that I tried to get, β forecast out of people, but I love to talk about what can happen. And when I feel, when I look back and I look at the evolution of our sports in general, like windsurfing and then kite surfing kind of, you know, took over windsurfing and then wing foiling took over kiting. β and I'm not saying that power wing is going to take over winging, but I
feel like a lot of wingers, get to a certain level, and unless you're throwing a backflip next, you kind of stall a little bit and you need to do something different. So then they might try the parawing, they might start dabbling into downwinding β a little bit more. And if you're a winger that never had exposure to kite surfing, for example, and your first thing β closest to a kite surf, a kite for a...
Dom (1:10:38)
you
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:02)
kite foil or something like that is the parawing. think it might even get people interested in kite surfing and go full circle back because you're like, I like the parawing. What about trying something with longer lines, you know, and go full circle back. β so it's so interesting how these trends happen. And I also have no idea what's going to happen with parawing. β but I feel that it's a sport that allows us to do so much, β and gives us normal humans, the ability to do something.
Dom (1:11:05)
you
Thank
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:32)
quite amazing and quite difficult. So I'm also very, very interested to see and follow what happens in 2025.
Dom (1:11:40)
Yes, I can agree more. Yeah, totally right.
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:45)
Well, Dom, I only have one more question left for you. I always like to just ask our guests to give someone who's thinking about paralinguing some reason to try it. Why should people just give it a crack?
Dom (1:11:59)
the main reason I feel like it's another form of freedom you can put yourself into. When the winging came along and we stopped using lines on kites and we went out on the foils with the wings, I felt a lot more free, especially on the waves, to surf the waves almost the way I wanted to because I didn't have to.
take attention, pay attention to the line tension on where my kite sits when I exit the waves and so on. I could just free surf the wave, obviously on the foil, amazing performance and so on. And for me, the power wing is now the next level of being free on the wave.
If you're just holding it in the hand like can see Kai is doing, you're not feeling any drag really or anything holding back on the wave and you just can go any direction. If you're now adding to it, if you're packing it into your pocket, you are literally free surfing on the wave and that's quite amazing with the opportunity to just do it all over again with very little physical effort.
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:02)
Mm.
Dom (1:13:21)
That's what we like to do, it? It's like, ah, that's easy, I can do that all day. If you're out there with a paddle or you've got a paddle by hand, you're doing it for an hour and you knack it. With a paddling, it's just, yeah, I can do that all day. So it is, it is. So that's why I think it's amazing. It allows you to go explore the waves a bit.
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Absolutely, it's almost hard to come back in.
Dom (1:13:51)
bit more free in different way.
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:54)
I love it. Dom, the next level of freedom. I think you summed it up pretty well. Dom, thank you for your time. We've got through it. We had a few connection issues, but we got through it. we got it. So yeah, look, I'll reach out to you and keep in touch. And hopefully we can talk in a year's time in a completely different market, a completely different.
Dom (1:14:06)
Yeah, sorry, that's on me, the connection was on my side. Sorry for that, people.
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:22)
reality and see what's happening with ozone in a couple of β months or a year's time.
Dom (1:14:30)
to. Thank you very much for having me.
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:32)
Cheers Dom, you have a good day.
