Daniel Paronetto (00:11)
Welcome to the Lab Rat Foriler podcast. My name is Dan and today we have Steve Tobis with us. Steve, thanks for joining,
Steve Tobis (00:19)
Yeah man, thanks for having me.
Daniel Paronetto (00:21)
You were one of the original writers that I was looking at online before, because I ordered my Parawing around September and I think you had two videos on YouTube, part one and part two, that were super helpful and I was just dissecting that video. I watched it probably four or five times before I got my Parawing. So thank you for coming on. Probably what is what, like six or seven months after those videos now?
Steve Tobis (00:47)
Yeah, more or less. kind of made them like right after BRM dropped their pair wings. β and that was, yeah, towards the end of the summer last year. So yeah, six, seven months or so.
Daniel Paronetto (00:56)
Yeah. So I'm keen to see what happened in those six months and get an update from you and when, where you're at with your pair winging journey. But before we move into that, β we really like to touch on a little bit of your history in sports. You know, it helps us understand what's in your tool bag that you're bringing into pair winging. So maybe you start by just telling us your history in sports and what led you into foiling.
Steve Tobis (01:20)
Yeah. So I got started really young. Um, I learned to kite when I was 10 in like 2002. Um, so I started with that. Like I was doing windsurfing and kiting when I was a Grom. Um, and I did kind of all aspects of kiting. I was doing freestyle kiting with twin tips. And when that was moving into like wake style and all that, and then you just, I don't know, kind of beat yourself up for so long. And then I got really into wave riding and like trying to push that on the kiting side. And then in, uh, like 20.
16 or 17, I got ahold of my first foil. And it was the slingshot hover glide, I think is what it was called. It was the green one, like this aluminum monstrosity. And I learned to kite foil. I was living in Southern California at that point in time. And that kind of kicked off the whole foiling thing for me. I stuck with kite foiling, or really, because that was really all there was to do for a while there. And then like surf foiling started to come around and there was like,
Daniel Paronetto (01:56)
Yep.
Steve Tobis (02:17)
you know, the, the Kai Lenny video that everyone saw that like opened up a whole lot of, uh, a whole lot of the surf foiling that we're doing. Uh, so then I was kind of going through that. And then when winging came around, like what 2019, 2020, I really leaned into that. And then the parawing dropped and that was just like a whole new avenue of foiling to go chase. So I've kind of been on this just like endless goose chase of foiling disciplines. And like, just
I know I try to do everything I possibly can. I'm going to kind of say I'm an equal opportunity offender. I don't stick in one lane. I'm like all over the place. I'm trying to do a hundred different types of foiling at the same time. yeah, I kind of just, I don't know. I like to do it all. It's too fun to get stuck into one discipline. I don't really have a favorite and there's one that, you know, I don't like one more than the other. Um, it's just really cool to see kind of how the sports developed, um, how the, how the gears developed over time and just.
Daniel Paronetto (03:11)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (03:12)
where things are going, just how far it's come in the last eight years from where we started to where Foils first started to be kind of commercially available to how it's like exploded. And now there's like a professional tour for winging and like, there's just so much happening in such a short amount of time. It's just really cool to be a part of.
Daniel Paronetto (03:25)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I completely resonate with that as well. Every time I see a new discipline in foiling, initially my first reactions weren't great. I was always like, that's just not going to be a thing. And then I think now slowly through foiling teaching me a lesson every time I'm like, that is something there. So what were your feelings when you saw your first power wing?
Steve Tobis (03:52)
Yeah. So the very first time I saw this parawing type concept was like two or three years ago. β Sam, he's the, the designer with five kite boarding here in Maui, kind of a smaller operation. He's one of the mad scientists that live here in the Island. And the very first time I saw that. To me, it didn't really click to be totally honest, because it was a very early prototype, very early generation. It looked pretty hard to do. And it just.
It looked like it took a lot of time and effort and skill to really like grasp the concept, but conceptually, I thought it was awesome. Like seeing Sam be able to get on a wave, stow the thing away, surf the wave and throw it back out. Like that was unreal. It was just, we hadn't got there on the gear development side to where it was, it was accessible for most riders. You know, if you really wanted to put the time and effort in, you absolutely could, but
Daniel Paronetto (04:40)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (04:44)
At that point, I was like really into downwinding and really chasing that whole thing with the, with the stop downwinding and it just didn't really click for me, but I was like, that's cool. Yeah, whatever. And downwinding. then when BRM dropped the Maliko Parrowing, you see the video and it's like, boom, instant power. The thing looks super stable. It's like, it was really refined to a point where almost anyone could jump on it and ride it. And that to me is like, what really
Daniel Paronetto (05:03)
crazy.
Hmm.
Steve Tobis (05:11)
stuck out to me and like made me want to get on it was just how, how easy it looked. And that's kind of a, you know, a fatal error where people who are really good at what they do, they make everything look super easy. So it was kind of, but I went into it, I think with, the right mentality of like, this is a new discipline. Yeah, I've done a lot of different stuff in the past, but this is still totally new. Like I was emotionally prepared to be really bad at this and spend a long time swimming. And that definitely, I think made my, my learning curve, like a lot more palatable.
Daniel Paronetto (05:17)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (05:41)
β
that there was a learning curve through it, you know, there wasn't like, just throw it out and you're ripping right away. Like there was some moments and, know, some, some challenges to figure everything out, but it was just kind of getting the equipment to, to come down to a level where most writers could access it and not be limited to kind of this niche really, β experience group that, really brought it in to where I wanted to do it.
Daniel Paronetto (06:05)
Hmm.
Yeah, look, I know exactly what you're saying. When I saw the, um, the pocket wing as well, I had the same view. even tried, I got my son's, uh, trainer kite and I went out and I just hold the bridles and I was like, ah, yeah, it could work. And then it got wet and then like the session was over and then never put it back up. And when I saw the BRM, I saw the video, I probably watched it a couple of times. went to Greg's website and I bought one within five minutes. It was like, I was like,
This, he cracked the code and it's, crazy because it was a 5 % difference in, in improvement in the gear that just made it possible. Like you said, and I think you guys are so privileged to have all these people around you. mean, how is it like to be in Maui and go to Ka'a and just see these guys test new things and experience sports from the beginning, from the inception.
Steve Tobis (07:02)
it's really cool. Like if you hang out at any beach here for long enough, you're going to see some kind of weird stuff. Some of it you look at and you're like, that's stupid. That's never going to work. But, but that's where it starts. You know, it starts with this one goofy whack idea that doesn't really work. And then it just kind of gets, you know, refined and distilled into something that's really cool and developed for the masses. So it's cool to see the process. It's fun to see like
You know, you start to know where some of the guys that do a lot of the designing, try to hide, but like it's still a small Island. We only have so many beaches. So you can go find people and see stuff that's happening kind of in the shadows. But yeah, man, it's, really cool to just kind of live and be around like the epicenter of the development. Um, obviously there's, know, there's parallels happening all over the world, but it seems like a lot of it does come from, from here in Maui and the wind sports. It's just something that's attracted.
Daniel Paronetto (07:43)
Hmm.
Steve Tobis (07:50)
wind sport athletes for decades, you know, with windsurfing in the seventies and eighties, there was a huge draw. And then a lot of those guys that were, you know, leaders in windsurfing transitioned into kiting and then into winging, you know, they've just been here and they've been developing these products for, for decades. So, you know, then you get some crazy idea and they go chase it and we end up with these silly pair wings.
Daniel Paronetto (08:12)
And are you guys all close? Like, do you guys all chat between yourselves and share a lot? Or like you said, sometimes, you know, new things might be a little bit more secretive, but once it's out there, like, what's the community like?
Steve Tobis (08:23)
Right. Once it's out, then yeah, everything's fair game. You know, once it seems kind of like the unwritten rules, once you can go buy it, then, you know, the, covers come off and it's fair game for everything. When it's still in prototyping and R and D that's where like people try to hold their cards close to their chest. Just, know, someone beats you to market. Like that's tough because then they, kind of ate some of your lunch, but once you've already released your product, it's out on the market. Like everything's super cool. Everyone's always trying to see what everyone else is doing. You know, it's all this like.
Daniel Paronetto (08:30)
Mm.
Fair.
Steve Tobis (08:51)
share but don't share type thing. And it's really interesting to see. But it's fun. It's cool to see just kind of where these sports are going and how they're progressing and developing in such a short amount of time.
Daniel Paronetto (09:03)
Yeah, I would love to spend some time there, man, and just get a sense of the vibe. It feels like it's a great place just to be around and soak up all that energy. It's awesome, What led you to go and live in Maui from living in California?
Steve Tobis (09:12)
Totally.
Uh, it's the wind sports, the ocean sports, you know, it's kind of, my dad was a big windsurfer like in the eighties. So, you know, I kind of grew up around it. Um, but just, I don't know, you know, what's here and then you go travel and live other places and it's like, all right. Yeah. But like, how do I get to Maui? So that's, know, you know, that's been the thing spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to do it. And then now finally doing it.
Daniel Paronetto (09:33)
Yep.
Good stuff, man. And you also do, like you also have heaps of videos about tow foiling and towing in general. Like what is your experience level in towing?
Steve Tobis (09:50)
Yeah, I like tow surfing, tow foiling, know, big wave surfing, water safety, kind of doing all that stuff. It's, I just kind of learned it, you know, I wanted to get into it like my whole life. And, know, it's just expensive, right? Between the equipment, the jet ski, then it's like finding a partner, finding someone you trust, someone that's going to put the time in to pair with you because tow foiling is not an individual sport. You know, it's, one of the only ocean sports that is a team sport.
Daniel Paronetto (10:03)
Mmm.
Steve Tobis (10:17)
and you're only as good as the other person, you know? just trying to find that out, it takes time, you know, and it takes a lot of hours to put that together. And then, you know, was really lucky to have some opportunities to train with some of the best in the business. A lot of the guys that, you know, they wrote the book for jet ski tow safety. So it was, you know, really fun to learn from them and just kind of develop a skillset that's like this weird niche skillset, but opens up a ton of really exciting and fun adventures in the ocean.
Daniel Paronetto (10:33)
So cool.
It's awesome.
Nah, it's super cool. I, I still like, froth and dream about tow foiling sessions and it's always so hard to sync up with people at jet skis. And it's like, it's a whole day event. It's a re, it's a different thing, but I think that could help you, you know, like once you're para winging and you're in the waves, you have so much more knowledge of what's going on and where to be. And I think that's, it's another skill set, like you said, that you're bringing into your tool bag.
Steve Tobis (11:12)
Yeah. And there's, there is crossover between it. Like you think, like once a jet ski and once a wind powered wing, like what crossover could you have? But you start to see just like how waves are coming in. You're looking at them differently and like where you can get the wave and when you need to set up your turn and just establishing your positioning on the wave. It's really not that much different. And in some ways, I think it's kind of better because you have all the control. You're not relying on. Yeah. You're not relying on that communication with your driver and like, you know, you
Daniel Paronetto (11:22)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you're not a real liar.
Steve Tobis (11:40)
You think that the wave behind is the wave, but they go on the wave in front or vice versa, you know, whatever. Like there's always those, yeah, yeah. There's always those like, you know, moments of disconnect that happen, you know, anytime you're doing something with two people, it's just inevitable. But, β yeah, so it's, there is crossover, but there's also like. Not, know, they're, they're different, but just like anything you can pull a little bit here and a little bit there and you can kind of, you know, mesh it together into this. Skill set of, of reading and writing waves.
Daniel Paronetto (12:08)
Yeah, a hundred percent. β I love that. I love doing everything as well. It's, it's part of just this podcast, this lab rat kind of experience, β an experiment idea, just try it all be a lab rat in the foiling experiment. That's what we try to do and see what happens. β so let's get into parowing, man. Like you, you got really, you were really early in trying sinker boards and.
Steve Tobis (12:25)
Totally.
Daniel Paronetto (12:36)
going straight into like minimizing your gear and the size of your gear. Sorry, let's just get some basics out there. How much do you weigh and how tall are you?
Steve Tobis (12:45)
Yeah, I'm 6'4 and 185 pounds. So think that's like 80, 80 kilos, 82 kilos, something like that, roughly. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (12:52)
Okay, low 80s, And
what are you currently writing?
Steve Tobis (12:57)
Uh, so I'm riding a custom KT mid-length. It's five, six, or like 18 at like 55 liters. That's kind of all I'm riding for para winging for a board. Um, I do have a standup. It's a smaller standup. I guess not really smaller, but it's like seven, six. Uh, and that was what I started on to learn on. And really just my idea with that is with all these sports, taking the board element out of it makes everything easier.
Right. You have so many things you're trying to deal with and trying to manage a board. Like everything's easier when you have a big stable platform to work from. And so that's where I started. And after a couple of sessions, I was like, okay. I figured out how the wing works. don't really want all this board. You know, now I want to like start to tap into performance. They're like move into the intermediate stage. And that's where I started experimenting with a lot of different boards at a whole ranges of designs and volumes and wits. I tried one day going out on my prone board.
Daniel Paronetto (13:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (13:55)
know, like what I wing with, it's like a four six 32 liter, like, you know, it's a full on prone board, but that's what I really like to wing with. And I wasn't even close to getting up like it was not happening. And that's kind of where I learned with the parawing, like it doesn't develop power like a wing, you know, you need a lot less drag, it's kind of an inertia problem where you need to overcome that resistance to the board being in the water. So that's why I started trying different boards that were like longer, skinnier, a little more volume to stay up and
Daniel Paronetto (13:58)
Whoa.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (14:24)
how I kind of ended up at, you know, in my mid length size, which I've had a lot of success with and it's a super fun board. So I kind of feel good about it. I don't feel like I want to go bigger, but I definitely do not want to go smaller. I know that.
Daniel Paronetto (14:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so 55 liters and what was the power wing that you were using when you were trying that full sink or the 30 odd liter?
Steve Tobis (14:43)
That was, I,
yeah, I tried my three meter parawing, the two eight, two nine, whatever it is. And then I tried a four and like, was blowing like, you know, 25, 30 mile an hour. Like it was windy and I know not even close. No, not even close. So then I went that same day, I took the same setup. I had on like a 90 tow foil. Cause I wanted to ride a tow foil setup. That was like my goal. And Elliot Laveau had a board down there was a little bit bigger.
Daniel Paronetto (14:48)
29.
and it wouldn't pick you, like give you that initial.
Steve Tobis (15:11)
And I tried that one and I was able to get up on that. So that's kind of where that clicked for needing the volume to come up out of the water. And then just kind of reducing the drag overall was, really important to getting everything to move.
Daniel Paronetto (15:23)
Yep. And what what foils were you writing when you're trying to are you always on the 90 to
Steve Tobis (15:29)
No, so I kind of bounce around a lot. I was riding all the Unifoil stuff. The progression 125 was like my go to foil. Now I've been on the F1 so the skate 850 I really like that. If it's a little bit weaker in the waves, then I'll throw on like an Eagle X 700. Something just a little more glide but if it's surfy that that skate 850 is like, it's unreal. It's been like my go to foil and I've had a lot of fun on it.
Daniel Paronetto (15:42)
Yeah, nice.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, nice. Do you find that, like you, and you still take the bigger pair of wings, the four, when you're on those kind of like synchro boards or are able to get it? Wow, that's good.
Steve Tobis (16:06)
No, I ride
basically a three meter. That's that's kind of it. For a few reasons. I, you know, the four is good. The bigger sizes are just a little less wieldy. You know, there's just more material, there's more going on. For some reason that that three meter size for here in Maui and just for me, like, it's a sweet spot. It's small enough that it's really easy for me to bunch up. It's easy for me to throw around and read to play if it gets tangled, there's not a lot to deal with.
Daniel Paronetto (16:18)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (16:36)
It was just kind of that that right size for our conditions here. Now, obviously, if I live somewhere with less wind, then that that calculus totally changes because you need to get going, you know, and if you need a four, if you need a five, whatever that is, like, you need to do that. But for here, the three was great. I tried the one eight and it just I felt like I had nothing in it. You know, I was not getting pulled across the water. It seems like lighter people definitely do better with that really small size. But for me,
Daniel Paronetto (16:49)
Mm.
Steve Tobis (17:04)
And just like in my way and the foils and boards I wanted to ride that, two nine three meter size was perfect.
Daniel Paronetto (17:11)
Yeah. And it's a great, like, think the smaller the parawing, the more fun you're having out there. So definitely sometimes I even try, β a smaller parawing and a bigger board. I'll go out on the downwind or board sometimes just to be able to flick a parawing around. If I'm doing a session where I'm going to be using it a lot. β yeah, that's awesome. And, like, I'm on a personal journey now to get my next board. And I currently ride, β
Steve Tobis (17:16)
Totally.
Daniel Paronetto (17:37)
a 510 by 18 by 85 liters. So a one to one weight volume to weight ratio. And I want to downscale. what makes a good mid length board for parawinging? Like you said, you tried a few things and a few different shapes. Like what's working for you and what worked for you?
Steve Tobis (17:57)
Yeah. So what I've had a lot of success with is early planing. That's, that's been like the critical design component is getting that board to get up and plane with as little effort as possible. Cause I found like what the parawing, doesn't pump. I can't seem to generate the power I can with a wing with a wing. I don't know. I just feel like I can create a ton of power and I can bridge that gap between not riding and riding really quickly and easily with the parawing. feel like I don't, I feel like it's a lot more.
Daniel Paronetto (18:12)
Mmm.
Steve Tobis (18:27)
sequential of a power delivery, like I have to shift through the gears more, you know, where I need to be like, not moving and then in like second gear and kind of slogging and then I need to hit third gear where it's starting to plane like, I can't skip. so having a board that has the efficiency to where whatever power the parawing can deliver at that point in time, it needs to maximize it. So things like like reducing width, I found was huge, kind of drawing out the shapes longer and narrower, seem to be a lot more efficient than kind of the short and fat.
Daniel Paronetto (18:30)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (18:57)
Um, that being said, like, that's not the only way to do it. Obviously, you know, short and wide, there's guys that ride those boards too, but just for me and like the boards that I want to ride, they've definitely been a little bit longer, a little more narrower. And then just retaining the volume that, gives me just enough float. Cause if they get too much volume, find they get too thick and I just don't like how the board feels in the waves. So it's kind of like trying to do this, balancing act between like five different things and not give up too much, but, but still try to retain some things and it's.
Daniel Paronetto (19:12)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (19:27)
It's a tricky balance to strike. feel like, you know, a couple more board iterations and it'll just continue to get better. But I'm stoked where I'm at. But definitely like next winter, I'll probably, you know, try to do another step in my board design and try something new. But you know, that's kind of, again, the beautiful thing about being here is there's just so many boards and so many different designers and people trying stuff and prototyping. It's like, you know, do you want to try this? You want to try that? And it's kind of this, this
Daniel Paronetto (19:33)
Yep.
Mm.
after.
Steve Tobis (19:56)
smorgasbord of gear that you can sample and try. it's pretty cool to just see what everyone's doing. There's a lot of different approaches. And I think there's not one right answer. There's a lot of different ways to end up the same result and whatever works for you and your conditions and your writing style is that's the best way to go.
Daniel Paronetto (20:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. What, what, what bottom shape of a board promotes that early planning? Is it just a flatter shape or what, what I'm, and I'm asking that because I'm like, I feel like there's, β an opportunity to get some of those flatter shapes onto a mid length board. And then you see some boards out there right now that are kind of going with that approach and
Steve Tobis (20:22)
So I...
Daniel Paronetto (20:37)
Just to, but then the touchdowns, you compromise when you're touching down on the water. So like, what is it that makes a good bottom shape for that early planning?
Steve Tobis (20:45)
Right. think if you're only designing around early planing, it's low rockers and flat bottoms. know, those just like a flat bottom boat, you know, they're basically always planing. That does come at the cost though, like you said, if you touch down, that's a lot of surface area that's going to want to stick. And then how your rails are shaped and how the water flows up and over onto the deck, like that's a huge amount of drag and, you know, reduced flow that you have when you have water coming over your deck. So there's, I think,
Daniel Paronetto (21:01)
Mmm.
Steve Tobis (21:14)
going full on into like flat bottoms is probably a little too extreme. But then if you have this like super rockered with a bunch of contour and stuff on the bottom, then a lot of times there's there's drag for when they're trying to plane. So it's it's kind of finding the difference and you can compensate a lot with length and waterline. And I think that's been a big help. But then you get too long and it's like not super fun to ride because I still want
Daniel Paronetto (21:26)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (21:41)
Like the feeling I'm going after is that that super surfy, like sitting in the pocket, really, you know, trough the lip surfing. That's like what I want out of it. So you have to give up a little, you can't do it. Take a eight foot board and surf, you know, vertically in three foot waves. Like it just, you start running into a, some people can't, I can't, you know, so shrinking that board down, having something that's just a little more maneuverable has been, you know, the, feeling that I'm chasing.
Daniel Paronetto (21:47)
Hmm. Yep.
Steve Tobis (22:11)
And that's just kind of what I want. There's other people that they want, you know, something that's going to be a little more cruisy and a little more gliding. And that's where they're, going with longer boards, you know, into seven feet or so. β but I pay for that where if it gets light, a lot of times I'm drifting for a while or I'm like stuffing the parawing in my shirt and prone paddling and chipping in and then throwing the wing out. Like you're, you're kind of like forced. Yeah. You're kind of forced to adapt. So it definitely like to get that surf feeling, I pay dues to get there. You know, it doesn't come free. there's pros and cons.
Daniel Paronetto (22:16)
Mm-hmm.
β look at that. Interesting.
Yep.
That's so cool dude.
I love that like chipping in and then deploying and I have some crazy ideas about doing some stuff on like an 11 liter board that I have and just having someone tow me up and then just be riding an 11 liter board like a kite foil board with the power wing. It will happen one day. I just need to find you know a twin tipper out there that's willing to tug me up and then I'll be alright. Yeah. What about the volume distribution?
Steve Tobis (23:02)
There you go.
Daniel Paronetto (23:07)
Where do you feel it's, is it an even volume distribution that you think works for power winging or a little bit more nose?
Steve Tobis (23:15)
I think a little more nose just to help that nose kind of stay up out of the water. But if they get too, too much volume in the nose, then it like bogs the tail bogs. So kind of, think just sitting, you know, a little bit nose high is ideal. My boards probably like, you know, roughly balanced, just maybe 55, 60 % in the nose. Because you also want tail lift. If you don't have enough in the in the tail of the board, as soon as you stand up, that board's just going to kind of sit and bog and it's not going to want to lift that tail up. So
finding the right tail shape and the right amount of volume throughout the board is super important.
Daniel Paronetto (23:50)
Yeah, it's so much to think about. you have inserts on your board or it's a strictly strapless?
Steve Tobis (23:55)
Yep.
No, I threw your inserts in it and I've tried some strap pair winging, tried some, backflips with it. β my, yeah, my neck was sore the next day and I kind of hung that one up, but no, it's, totally doable. It's totally a thing. β there's, you know, like, β falls Mueller over in Europe. You know, he's doing some strap stuff. β the, the day after I posted a video trying backflips, Kyle, Lenny goes out and throws like insane backflips is riding out and just like,
Daniel Paronetto (24:00)
was gonna ask. Yep.
It's just this perfect one.
Steve Tobis (24:23)
makes it. Yeah,
it just makes it look unreal. And it's like, all right, well, there, there's the bar and I'm good. So you know, it's, it's all kind of risk reward and what you want to do and put your body through. And like, for me, I was just, I'd rather go ride waves and try to ride, you know, eight consecutive days and not like spend one day freestyling and then four days with ibuprofen and a foam roller.
Daniel Paronetto (24:45)
Yeah, I'm still really
interested in putting some straps on and even just riding a wave powered on the pair of wing and doing some slides. Like there's so much to explore. Like, um, yeah.
Steve Tobis (24:56)
Totally.
I think it's worth doing like strap inserts. They really don't add much to a board like as far as weight and like if you use them great, if you don't like so what you know they're not heavy. It's pretty easy to do so and it just gives you a whole nother option of riding to kind of chase.
Daniel Paronetto (25:03)
Mm.
And how well, can you break down that sinker start that you kind of probably perfected by now? Like how, what is your technique to getting up on a sinker board?
Steve Tobis (25:25)
So right now, that's a really good question. I don't really have a technique. It's a lot of flopping and flailing and trying to balance until I magically get a gust and then we go. the full sinker board, I do it just like winging, you know, where I just sink the board and put my feet on top and go. Now with my mid-length, like when I wing, I still sinker start it that way. Like I'm standing on the deck of the board and then I grab the wing and go. But with the para-wing, just kind of the way it works, I can't do that.
Daniel Paronetto (25:46)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (25:54)
So what I do is I start on my knees. I gotta think about it a little bit. Yeah, I start on my knees, I'm holding the nose of my board and then the parawing's in one hand. And then once it starts to pull and I get moving, then I have both hands on the parawing and then I go from my knees to my feet and then try to pump the board and get up.
Daniel Paronetto (25:58)
Mm-hmm.
And that pumping action, it's a very, I feel it's a different pumping action than when you're sub paddling, for example, where you go and you go through those phases, like you said, that, you know, 10 to 20%, 20 to 40. And I feel it's almost sometimes more like a dock start where you start forcing a pump and then you engage the foil. This is if you have wind.
If you don't have wind, think it's very much like, you you go slow and you pick up speed slowly. But tell us a little bit about that initial pumping action to engage the foil.
Steve Tobis (26:49)
Yes. So I'm usually trying to be a little more gentle on the foil because I don't want to push through it. Because if I push through it, then your board hits and then you kill all your momentum that you have. So I try to, to sue a little more gentle pumps. And really I'm just trying to build speed because usually like the first three or four pumps, I'm not actually fully up on foil. It's kind of that like you're more hopping and I'm trying to like, just maximize the amount of time that I'm up on foil in between hops.
Daniel Paronetto (27:18)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (27:19)
Because
that's really where I find I'm building that, last 20 % of speed that I need to get riding. So I'm not so much trying to push on the foil as much as I'm almost trying to jump off of it and unweight the board and get the foil to carry, you know, three feet and then six feet and then 10 feet. And then at that point I've retained enough of that speed where I'm off and going. So it's more about trying to unweight everything and less about trying to push through it.
Daniel Paronetto (27:44)
It's so cool because I think it's so sensitive and you become so in tune with what's happening. And when you say, it's, you know, it's a delicate pump, you know, there's a delicate pump and there's a forceful pump and we get really, I don't know, sensitive to those things. And that's where I think people that don't practice other disciplines, they might take a little bit longer because they haven't experienced like trying to pump out of, you know, a bad situation down winding, for example, or.
doing a two for one and just pumping out and going against the wind and things like that that would help you get that sensitivity and learn that sensitivity. That's pretty cool.
Steve Tobis (28:24)
Yeah, definitely. it's, you there's, pull a little bit from all the different sports you do. It's not like saying, you know, if, you never kite, you can never wing. Like that's just not true, but there's little things and just little techniques and balance tips and feelings and sensations that, that you'll recall or be able to pull from. And you can kind of put them together and it just makes learning future sports. I think just a little bit, it accelerates your learning curve where, know, if someone who's never done it, maybe it takes them a month to learn.
Daniel Paronetto (28:34)
Mm.
100%.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (28:52)
and
someone who's done a lot, might take them, you know, three days, but it's, and you know, yeah, it's all just pulling little feelings and feedbacks and tips and tricks. And you kind of just piece it together and then you end up writing.
Daniel Paronetto (29:04)
Yeah, and that's why Kai, you know, sends a backflip in his first session. He's done backflips on everything. So he's like, yeah, I can throw this around. What did you, yeah, super easy. What did you bring from kite foiling? I love to talk to people who kite foil because there's so many things that we can start doing with parawinging that relate to kite foiling riding. What kind of ability did you tap on when you started parawinging?
Steve Tobis (29:07)
Yeah, exactly. Easy.
I think a lot of
it, it's just the foil discipline at those speeds. cause kite foiling is inherently a faster discipline, right? Like obviously it's not, you know, there's people racing, winging and whatnot, but, for sake of conversation, generally I find that I'm moving faster when I'm kite foiling. Cause just the way that everything works, the size of foils you're riding, how the kite pulls you, you know, like I'm moving faster. So you learn how to deal with speed and how to, how to maneuver at speed and then kind of how to maintain your momentum.
Daniel Paronetto (29:45)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (29:58)
as you're trying to do different tricks and stuff. And that's, I think that's the biggest thing. I don't really feel like I gained a lot of, well, I guess one thing I did in the very first few sessions of the parawing before we had the bridle adjustment that came out, I was having a problem with with holding down my power. Like I was just always way overpowered. And it was just I was getting blown up. And it took me a minute to figure it out. But I started being more proactive on my foil with how I was edging.
Daniel Paronetto (29:58)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (30:26)
And kind of like back to the two line kite days or like the fixed four lines when you couldn't sheet and you had to watch the water and see the gusts and really set your edge before the gusts hit. Then like that it took me a little bit, but that came back to me. And then I started doing that again and like finding the gusts and like being way loaded up on my edge before the gusts hit to drive that wing to the front of the window. Stuff like that is, were kind of some, some things that I brought over, but you know, those, think those are just like minor nuance things at like, like,
Daniel Paronetto (30:31)
Yep.
Mmm.
Steve Tobis (30:56)
The gear development, I feel has already moved beyond needing those techniques. know, like the first session, the first iteration, we were on two line kites, you know, with, it was full power, just hold on and pray. Now, know, Greg put out the bridle modification that gave a little more sheeting. And then there's, there's new designs from Ensys and Flow and Ozone. And like, they all kind of just are building on each other. And as riders, you know, we're just gaining advantage here with better gear. And now there's without.
Daniel Paronetto (31:00)
Mmm.
100%.
Steve Tobis (31:24)
leaking too much. guess there is a new Maliko that Greg's working on and you see that wing and it's just, you know, another step beyond. So it's this evolution of gear getting better and better where you don't need those skills and experiences. Now you can kind of get away with like kiting when we had the bow kites and you could just sheet out and the kite be powered. That was huge for people learning and like, yeah, it was this massive design leap and we're not there yet, but we're, we're getting there. We're like at the chicken loop phase, you know, we have some sheeting, we have some control.
Daniel Paronetto (31:27)
Mm-hmm.
That was a crazy evolution. Yeah.
Yeah.
A lot of people ask me about that. Like, we ever have something that resembles a chicken loop in the B lines and, you know, be able to sheet out, sheet in? I'm not sure. It's, I like the, I think there's something about what Greg did and that is so minimal. And it's so like, there's no pulleys. There's nothing like you see other brands exploring with pulley systems and all that. I think it's really cool. think you might get a little bit more wind range or whatever, but it starts to get complicated.
It's so much harder to design something that simple rather than designing something with all these bells and whistles that does everything. I really admire that simplicity. So I can't wait for a V2 of the BRM and see where, where he's going to take it because I also feel that the pair wings will start to become a little bit different. You know, like you guys are riding waves and the stowability and the packability is, probably one of the biggest things and going up wind, you know, like you need those.
features in the Parawing so you can just pack it away quickly, right away. So which Parawings have you ridden so far?
Steve Tobis (33:00)
So I've rode the BRM, the NSYS and the Flow Wings. And I've tried a couple of prototypes from some other brands, but the ones in my garage are those three right now. The BRM, the NSYS and the Flow.
Daniel Paronetto (33:11)
Yeah, what,
and a lot of people, and this is not a comparison, but what do you feel that each of them have that is like their strength?
Steve Tobis (33:23)
Totally. So I think the, the BRM has simplicity. It's, you know, one metric that I've been interested in, and it seems to be kind of hard to get is how many meters of lines are in each set of bridles. Because when you put them all next to each other, it doesn't look like, you know, there's, you look at like the NTS looks like it has the most, and then the flow is kind of in the middle and the BRM looks like the least, but that's just kind of how it looks. That might not be the true amount of the true, you know, linear feed of lines that each one has. So.
Daniel Paronetto (33:35)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (33:53)
I think that's an interesting comparison metric that I'd more to speak curious to know, but the BRM definitely seems to take the cake for simplicity. Like it's, it's just a really simple design. There's not a lot to it for better or for worse, but it's just kind of there. It works. It packs down super small. And so like for wave writing, packed on sizes is a really important feature to me. Like being able to ball it up into something the size of, you know, a cantaloupe is really nice versus
watermelon like that's just, it seems minor, but when you're on the wave, and you're trying to focus on riding a wave, having a smaller sail size or a smaller pack down size matters. With the ensus, they have like a sheeting system in the middle line, which it's more of I think, like a safety D power in less of a sheeting where you could clip to it if you wanted to and then let go and now you're on a leash and it's totally flagged out. But they
Daniel Paronetto (34:38)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (34:49)
So if that's something that is important to you or you want, then that's kind of the only one right now offering that type of safety system. The Ensis and Flow, they have a heavier sail material than the BRM. So who knows for durability? I put a ton of hours on my BRM and it's still fine. My three meter after a while starts to get a little bagged out compared to my four, which is still crispy, but it's not bad.
Daniel Paronetto (34:55)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Steve Tobis (35:15)
So I think, you know, with these heavier materials, they don't pack down as small, but they might last a little longer, deal with abrasion better. And then the flow, what I really noticed with that one is it just pulls like a truck. Like the low end on it is insane. I found that I couldn't quite point as high up wind as I could. The ensis I could shoot way up wind. Cause it was, I think it's just a little higher aspect design and pushes to the front of the window. But with that, I feel like I gave up some of the low end out of it. So like my wind range for that wing.
Daniel Paronetto (35:21)
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (35:44)
is pushed a little bit higher than compared to like the flow or the BRM. So it's really interesting to see kind of you just put all these three different designs back to back to back and there's, there's similarities, but there's also differences. And those differences are not that dramatic. You know, like the Ensis is probably the most different with like an extra set of lines and the sheeting thing in the middle, but it's still like not anything crazy. You know, it's still single skin design. They still have like this.
Daniel Paronetto (35:48)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (36:14)
loop plastic thing for the leading edge shape. So, you know, it's just really cool to see the small iterations, but you know that eventually there's going to be some bigger steps coming along the way.
Daniel Paronetto (36:25)
Yeah, I, I there's so yeah, like you said, I think there's a lot of design that will still evolve, but then the materials I, I feel like the advantage of the BRM, which I really think is smart. Like if you're doing a first iteration of a pair of wing in six months time, that's going to be obsolete. So you're not really looking for longevity anyway. β and that gives you time as a brand to search for other options that might be a little bit more durable with the same packability.
And I feel like the brands kind of, um, over killed a little bit on that longevity. I feel like we don't, I don't use the parawing all the time. Like it's not like a kite that you're riding and it's flying for a hundred percent of the session. Apparel flies for like, you're riding waves, it might fly for maybe 60, 70 % of the session and you write ways for 30%. Um, but if you're doing a downwind or it's the opposite, it's up for 20%, 10 % and then you're
Steve Tobis (37:24)
If that, yeah. Right.
Daniel Paronetto (37:24)
doing a downwind or you don't even if that right so
depending on your use I feel like there's a huge opportunity for the brands to say look this is a downwinding parawing this is like 24 gram material which is super light it's not for you to you know mow the lawn or something like that but it will give you incredible packability super fast super quick and then you have another type of parawing that might be for someone who
needs a little bit more resistance and wave riding. Like if you get yarded, you probably need a little bit of, you would know, a little bit of resistance in your parawing. So then maybe you need, you know, some better stitching or whatever, reinforced stitching. What are your thoughts on like those different avenues that parawing will start to converge to now?
Steve Tobis (38:06)
Yeah.
It makes sense. Look at every iteration of wind sport. You've had windsurfing, have wave sails, have slalom sails, you have freestyle, then you go into kiting of sea kites, bow kites. There's just different designs for winging. have the boom freestyle handles, you have soft handles, you have different designs that built with different discipline intent. And I think it's just inevitable that the parawing is going to go that route.
Daniel Paronetto (38:30)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (38:40)
The first iterations of kites we had had two lines, three struts, and they were five meters and you could have red or black. You know, I feel like that's kind of where we are. Hey, right, right. Totally. And, and I think that, you know, we, we've been there with the parawing and now we're progressing into probably some more disciplined, uh, design intents. I think there is still something for, to be said for just kind of casting a wide net, you know, having a does everything approach. Um, you know, I don't know what.
Daniel Paronetto (38:45)
Yep. Lou Wayman was still doing S-Bends on it, so it's doable.
Steve Tobis (39:09)
what the market looks like for, you know, disciplined choices, but it seems like it's just kind of an inevitability. I don't think there's been any wind sport that's stuck in a single lane as it's developed over time. You know, maybe at the beginning it did, but they've all seemed to branch out. And, you know, I think it's inevitable that we'll see those designs, you know, ultra lightweight, call it like low durability designs for downwinding that it gets you up and then you put it away and it's, you know, the size of a baseball.
or you have something that's built for wave riding that is a little more durable and has the heavier stitching and can get drug through the water and not blow up. I think it's inevitable and it's going to be cool to see how these designs evolve and the production shakes out over the next couple of years.
Daniel Paronetto (39:52)
Yeah, it will. And I think it's, so early still. mean, we're in a niche sport, right? And we're talking about within a niche, talking about a secondary niche. So like, what is the market for it? Like you mentioned, probably tiny or probably be like a hundred people that would buy it if that, and that was it. but yeah, like I, I, I do feel that, this year will be massive for parawinging. Like God, I can, I can see now summer coming up and everybody.
Steve Tobis (40:07)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (40:22)
wanting to try the parawing and let's see where we are by the end of this year. I feel like a lot of the wingers will have one parawing in their quiver at least by the end of the year. You know, a good percentage of that.
Steve Tobis (40:33)
Totally.
When like here in Maui through the summer, that's our downwind season. You know, our North shore is pretty much flat, but you know, Maliko just fires. And already we've seen more people going downwind with their parawings. Like last year it was, there was a handful of people, only a couple. Now there's been like a car full of just parawingers doing their own downwind thing. So it's opening up the sport to people that
Daniel Paronetto (40:41)
Yeah.
Mmm.
So cool.
Steve Tobis (40:57)
either don't want to or unable to put in the time and physical effort it takes to learn to paddle downwind. And it just kind of opens up the sport for now with the parawing into a lot more accessible and like user friendly sport. Cause ask anyone like downwinds up paddling, it sucks to learn. is without a doubt, like I'll die on this hill, the hardest ocean sport to learn without a doubt. And, and then to be able to do it at a point where you're having fun and you're enjoying it.
Daniel Paronetto (41:06)
Mm-hmm.
my god.
Yep.
Steve Tobis (41:25)
That takes so much time, not to just be able to complete a run, but to get to the bottom and be like, yeah, that was fun. Like I enjoyed that. That takes so long and it's so hard. So I think what the parawing it eliminates 90 % of that. Like, yeah, you still got to learn how to, how to ride downwind, but it just opens it up. And I think it's only going to be better for, for downwind and just the development of the sport and getting people to do something that they probably wouldn't want to do otherwise.
Daniel Paronetto (41:29)
Yeah, survive. Yeah. It does.
Yeah, I feel like a lot of the wingers who there's a few things that people who wing, β they kind of carry and hold onto very strongly one, the ability to go out and have a session. So they don't want to do the shuttles. They're like, I don't want to do all this thing. It sounds so hard. Well, the parawing eliminates that because you do your own upwind and downwind and, and, you you get rid of that. But also, like you said, learning to paddle, man, I went through hell. It took me so long. I think, me.
What was hard about it was it took me a long time to get to a level where I was comfortable enough to start like risking a little bit because I didn't want to fall. I just wanted to ace every run and my mindset was like get to point from point A to point B without falling. And once you do that a couple of times, I was like, God, I mean, I want to start exploring and then, you know, after 10 paddle ups, your 11th paddle up will be, it won't be great.
You know, you're going to start getting sloppy with your technique and you're tired. And then the power wing allowed me to just go on a downwind run and just hammer it. Not care if I fall. I don't care. Like I get up as easy as you get up on a, on a wing. And then my evolution in turns just went bananas. So do you feel that, wingers will benefit from this? Like who, who do you feel will like just look at the power wing is that option of, well, maybe this is how I start downwind.
Steve Tobis (43:17)
think anyone that wants to downwind, even for for sub paddlers, like, you know, I've been downwind paddling for a few years now. And like, when I got the parawing, that's all I was doing for like two or three weeks, all my downwinders are on the parrying. And it was just so cool, because kind of your point, it opened up a new line that I was taking through the ocean, like, I'd never cruise the shoreline all the way down the North Shore of Maui, like we're always way off in the deep blue bombs. And then one day we had like a little two to three foot north swell. And I was like, I'm gonna hug the coastline. And I literally did like a
Daniel Paronetto (43:19)
Mm.
Steve Tobis (43:46)
tour de Maui, I hit every single surf spot between Malico and the harbor. And I was like, never more than like, three 400 yards offshore, I was like in the brakes. And then you know, there's a shallow spot of reef, so you go out and around it. And like, I, it was really fun, because I got to like sample all these epic surf spots, still do a downwinder. And like, I didn't have that concern of falling. Because if with a downwind setup, like if you fall in head high waves, like that's
Daniel Paronetto (43:47)
So cool.
my-
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (44:14)
kind of a lot to manage with a, you know, nine foot board and the downwind race foil. Like it's just not the right conditions to have that equipment in. But here I'm on a surf setup with a surfboard and like our surf foil board and I'm where I want to be in those waves with this. So that was really cool to see or really cool to do. Um, it was just a different avenue to approach kind of the, you know, the Maliko to the Harbor shuttle. Um, but then yeah, you know, people that have wind sport experience and they want to get into it, but
don't want to invest in in sub foiling financially or physically or whatever, the paroing gives them that option, you know, and it lets them draw from because like paddle downwind, it's a paddle sport, it's not really a wind sport. Where your background if you have a strong sub paddling background, you're going to translate better than someone with a strong wing foiling background. And the paroing will kind of align better with someone with a wing foiling background because you're still more doing a wind sport, you still got to learn how to read the bumps and all that but like
Daniel Paronetto (44:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (45:12)
As far as just getting on foil and going, which is like 80 % of the battle, the parawing will bridge that gap a lot better for someone with that wind support background.
Daniel Paronetto (45:21)
And how do you feel that the parowing kind of forced you to become a better downwind foiler? Because we don't have a paddle. I would be able to get out of any hole with a little paddle pump and things like that. And you can't do that with the parowing. Do you feel that you started to, you perform better on a downwind run and using turns a little more?
Steve Tobis (45:44)
Yeah, so interestingly enough, like when I downwind paddle, I never use my paddle. So then like, I don't paddle pump, I think a lot of that is because I like to use a really short paddle for my height, like my paddles like around my eyebrows. So for me to paddle pump with that, I'm like really reaching down and it just, I'm not in a good, like biomechanics setup it with that, you know, like it just, I don't get power from that. I do better if I just
use my legs and just push on the foil. So I really didn't feel like I was losing anything switching to the parawing. And if anything, I felt like it was actually easier because I have both my hands free. And that was a really weird feeling. Like you don't think that holding a paddle is a big deal because you're like, okay, this thing weighs, you know, two pounds, whatever. It's like minor. But then as soon as you put that parawing away and it's, know, in the little fanny pack and you flip it around on your back and now you're just standing there. You're like,
Daniel Paronetto (46:24)
It's cool, isn't it?
Steve Tobis (46:40)
like doing the Ricky Bobby, like, don't know what to do with my hand. You know, it was just like, it was, it was such a trip. And like, to be able to send a prone downwind or here in Maui, like you got to be a pretty gnarly athlete, like just the chip in is really intense. There's no breaks as you go down. If you fall, you're just swimming, you know, you're kind of just screwed. So to be able to experience that and not have that risk exposure and like,
Daniel Paronetto (46:50)
Ugh.
You're done.
Steve Tobis (47:05)
to for a regular downwind foil or to be able to go do that was a really cool feeling. I would say it kind of just felt different. You know, I don't think it necessarily helped, but it also didn't hurt. It was just a new feeling. And it was really fun to just kind of experience that.
Daniel Paronetto (47:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think that's really good discipline for anyone who's paddle, β who's using the paddle to not use the paddle. And if you're, if, if you're going to come down, come down and force yourself into a hole that you're like, I'm going to get out of this either by reading the bumps better or just pumping your way out of it. Because you get into bad habits out there and you're always doing a little pump out on it. Like when you don't even think about it then you're like, God, I have to put this paddle away because it's not what you want to be doing. You know,
Steve Tobis (47:49)
Yeah, I think there's like, think I have opportunity to use my paddle more. Like I think it'll help me out in the long run, but I think it also goes the other way where you can kind of rely on it as a bit of a crutch where if you learn like, why did I get myself in this hole and what bump selection choices that I make to get me into this position to kind of be ahead of that. I think you end up paying out better on the backend, but then being able to bring the paddle in, you know, I think it, it is still adding energy, right? You're still.
Daniel Paronetto (48:08)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (48:16)
imparting energy on the water so you're going to move faster. think just being selective with it and like using it at the right times is critical to kind of optimizing in that standpoint.
Daniel Paronetto (48:27)
Yeah. Yeah. And, I think I really want to touch on wave riding with you because you have a lot of experience tow foiling and just towing in general. And what are some good tips for people getting into parawinging for wave wave riding?
Steve Tobis (48:44)
Yeah. β so the, the biggest thing that I figured out was set up on the wave early. like, don't try to get on, don't try to make your turn as the wave is standing up and that lips coming over, try to get on where you think you need to be, go another 50 yards out and try to turn on the wave there. β and the reason for that is it takes time to pack up the parawing and set up for your wave. And if you start your turn in the good part of the wave,
Daniel Paronetto (49:00)
Mmm.
Steve Tobis (49:11)
Now you've been messing around with the parawing and you've totally blown the good part of your wave. And now you have kind of the leftover crumble on the inside that like, no one wants to ride that anyways. So if whatever the good section is, and some waves are mega long and it doesn't matter. And like, that's not what this is about. If you have a section where there's a defined good part of the wave and it's, know, from A to B, and that's where you want to be. Make sure that you're turned around, the wing is packed down and you're set up and ready to ride the wave by the time it starts to get there.
Daniel Paronetto (49:40)
That's a great tip.
Steve Tobis (49:40)
So that's like
the biggest thing it took me to figure out. Cause I was blowing all these really good waves and I just couldn't get the feeling that I wanted. And I figured out it was just cause I was too late. I was, you know, packing down the parawing, just flying down the line when I'm like wanting to turn. So I started setting up earlier. There is, you know, its own skillset with that, where the wave is moving so fast. It hasn't really hit the reef and slowed down yet. So like finding your timing, that just takes time. It just takes practice.
You're going to blow 30 waves before you get a good one, but eventually you'll figure out what that timing needs to be like, and then you'll start to dial it. And then you're getting really good surfing waves in the optimal section. β the other thing, the other thing that really helped me out was when I'm stowing the parawing is a turned down wind and face in, like go with the parawing and that helps it collapse. And you don't get cells of air or like pockets that are inflated.
Daniel Paronetto (50:20)
I like that. That's really good.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (50:37)
And what I found, yeah, I'm a goofy footer. So in Maui, I'm trying to go left a lot of times and that's into the wind. And if you're going into the wind, if you have the smallest pocket, it catches wind and it just slows you way down. It's like a drag shoot at that point, or it re-inflates and pulls you backwards, you know, and like you're in the wave, then you get pounded and that's super unfun. So I found that when I set up, if I just drift off downwind a little bit, as that wing is coming down and I'm stowing it,
Daniel Paronetto (50:43)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (51:03)
It's much easier to deal with it. And I get everything all packed up and situated. And then I turn left into the wind to get on my wave. If you're going right or you're riding your wave with the wind, then that's less of a thing because you're going that way anyways. But if you're riding a wave where you're pointing into the wind, definitely just bearing off a little bit to get everything packed and sorted is really important to getting a good wave ride.
Daniel Paronetto (51:10)
Mm-hmm.
And you're not completely stowing. You're just wadding while you're riding the waves these days.
Steve Tobis (51:34)
Yeah. So when I ride waves, I don't use the belt, β because the amount of time it takes me to get everything packed away in the bell and then like sorted is just too long. Like the wave, you you think maybe on a really good wave, have 30, 35 seconds on the wave. I can't get everything sorted, tucked away in the belt, ride the wave and then get it back out in that amount of time where I'm enjoying the wave. So really I just pack it up. hold it in my hand.
Daniel Paronetto (51:44)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (52:01)
And I ride the wave. So where it's all just held in my hand in that way, it's, it's already out. It's easy and quick to redeploy. And, I just get it. The whole thing. I'm trying to enjoy the good, the meat of the wave and then do everything else on the beginning and backside of it.
Daniel Paronetto (52:15)
Yeah. And I sometimes I don't even care. So like, I obviously, I want to try to redeploy and get up and going if I can, but sometimes I just, if the waves that good, I just, I really don't care how I bunch it up. can just stop and just ride out of the wave, stop and just do another water start and get going. β and you want to get into the flow of just doing a session and having those runs without touching down. But to be honest, I'll sacrifice going back out to hitting a wave the way it should be hit, you know,
Steve Tobis (52:44)
Totally, totally. like, I'm very guilty of that. If there's a really good section and it's like, I know I'm going on the inside where the wind's a little squirrely and light, I'm probably not going to get it going. I still send the wave and like, it's fine. If, you know, if the wave kind of fizzles out and I know like, I want to get back out or I'm like in between sets and I know that I don't have time to mess around with a restart and I like need to stay up to be able to get back out before the next set, then that's where like, I'm really more focused on the redeploy.
Daniel Paronetto (53:05)
Hmm.
Steve Tobis (53:13)
But otherwise, yeah, like it's just right the way. And that's what we're here to do. And we'll figure out the rest later.
Daniel Paronetto (53:17)
100%. But in saying that, what have you found helps to be able to redeploy properly? And you're using the BRM, which doesn't have any color coding as well. how do you wad it up? And how do you hold it in your hand? And I know this, sometimes we don't even think about it, but people starting out, always ask, how do you hold the thing? Where do I put the lines? And what's your technique for that?
Steve Tobis (53:43)
Totally.
you know, the old saying better be lucky than good. I kind of live by that. So it's yeah. The, the stowing and redeploy for wave riding, I think is the hardest part because you're trying to make this bundle of lines and fabric and then have it sort itself back out with a puff of wind. Like that's, you know, when you say it like that, like that, that's a lot to ask. β there are some.
Daniel Paronetto (53:57)
Hmm.
It's a tall ass, isn't it?
Steve Tobis (54:12)
tricks so that I think help your chances of a redeploy happen. You know, I'm, I'd never am a hundred percent on them. Like when I first started, I would maybe get like 15 or 20 % of my redeploys. And then after, you know, a month of practice, now I'm like probably like 70, 80%. So there are things you can do. Um, I stall off the back lines. So when I'm coming in, you know, I hold the back lines, I grab everything at the bar and then slide it all the way up.
Daniel Paronetto (54:20)
Mm-mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (54:42)
to the sail. And then I like doing it in my hand as I'm talking through it, I get my wing, like the canopy sorted in my hand first. And then I just bring the bar to my other hand. So now I'm just making a big loop with the lines and the bar and it's all held in one hand. And then I'm riding basically with this loop hanging down on my downwind hand. So I have the canopy in the bar all in my downwind hand and there's just a loop of lines.
Daniel Paronetto (54:46)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (55:10)
There, just riding my wave, letting it do its thing. Um, I'm trying to not let the bar like pass through lines or whatever. And then when I go to redeploy something that helped me out a lot, and I got this from Scott Drexler watching him ride is I don't throw the wing. just kind of drop it. And then I let it slowly reinflate or like re-catch air. And then I can see if I have a cross or the bars fed through, I don't have a fully powered wing. have, you know, a 40 % powered wing. then.
Daniel Paronetto (55:16)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (55:39)
I can grab it and feed it through real quick if it's a small adjustment and then let the wing will power up. And I can do that like while I'm on foil. If I have a bigger tangle or there's more going on, it's kind of just messed up. Then like I usually end up stopping and fixing and restarting. But a lot of the minor tangles where it's just like one pass through the lines, that's pretty easy to sort out while you're still on foil. β and a lot of that is just not letting the sail fully power when I'm trying to deal with it. Cause once that thing's powered up, it's hard to reel it back in.
Daniel Paronetto (56:00)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (56:09)
And like, you don't want to feed your hands through the lines and then they like get caught. And it just kind of a spooky feeling when your hand or fingers get wrapped in line. So having it like partially, β partially powered and like kind of sitting on your board almost, or like by your feet seems to have been that doing that, like increase my, my make rate, whatever you want to call it, like pretty substantially.
Daniel Paronetto (56:15)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Yeah.
I think that dude, that is like a golden tip. If anybody takes anything out of this podcast, just listen to that because we, yeah, I would throw it in the beginning. And, and, and the other thing is when you do deploy it and it's fully powered within a second, it gives you a bit of a jolt. And sometimes you're able to hold onto it. Sometimes it can, you know, throw you off balance, but I do the same. just hold it down and you see sometimes it even on spins itself and then.
you know, it redeploys, it wants to fly properly. And once there's a little twist in the lines, sometimes you can even ride out of it and you know, it tries to sort itself out.
Steve Tobis (57:14)
You definitely don't get that like death loop that it does when it's fully powered and you have a twist or a rotation. I find that when nothing powers off, if those lines are twisted, it just wants to keep going and going and like, can't get it undone. But when there's no power in it, it'll just like self unwind or you can twist the bar. And it's, just a lot easier to manage when there's less power in the sail
Daniel Paronetto (57:18)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
That's such a good tip, man. And another thing that for me sometimes is really hard is to navigate white water in the surf. And what are your tips for that? How do you ride the foil in white water?
Steve Tobis (57:47)
Yeah, that's hard because you're going from this super solid clean water to air and there's pockets and it's blowing up and it's like little landmines throwing your foil everywhere. The best tips I can give is ride fast and ride flat. And kind of what I mean through that is like attack the whitewater. Don't slow down and let the whitewater come to you. Like try to punch through the whitewater, like be the hammer, not the nail. And the other thing is ride your foil really flat and
Daniel Paronetto (58:12)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (58:16)
What happens if you're on edge like this, and you get, you know, a pocket of air down here, it can drop your foil out where you're, you know, you're not leveraging that full flat, you know, projected area, you're, leaned over. And when you go through whitewater, you're going to lose lift, like that's just what's going to happen. So when your foil is super flat, it's just going to work better. And then also like really stepping in with your back foot to get that steep angle of attack to try to leverage the low end of the foil is what's going to matter.
Daniel Paronetto (58:23)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (58:46)
Some foils do better than others. I personally have a harder time dealing with whitewater on bigger foils because I just can't seem to move as fast through the water. So when I have little smaller foils, I just feel like I'm less impacted by the variation and turbulence happening in the whitewater. And then ultimately it's just practice. You know, there's only one way to figure it out and that's by doing it. But really I think the biggest thing is just ride fast and get through that crappy water and into the good water as quickly as possible.
Daniel Paronetto (58:55)
Interesting.
Do you find a difference between lower aspect foils and higher aspect foils as well?
Steve Tobis (59:21)
Yeah, I think the lower aspect handle the whitewater much better. The high aspect foils, I don't know, I feel like they kind of have a little less low end. So they want to drop out a little more. And when you hit that aerated water, they just don't seem to hold and support as well as a lower aspect foils. So that's kind of where like when I'm in waves, I really like the more surf foils, you know, like the skate compared to the Eagle X, because it just lets me do a lot more in the whitewater.
But if it's not like a good surf foil wave, then you kind of just deal with it. And you can adjust your timing too, to where you're not really dealing with like big whitewater and like your set waves. Try to go out in between sets where it's smaller and more manageable, but it's kind of one those, there's no magic to it. But I think just hit it fast and hit it flat and you'll punch through a lot easier.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:01)
Yeah.
What size mast do you normally use when you're wave foiling? Sorry, wave riding.
Steve Tobis (1:00:21)
I
usually like an 85 mast 8085. So with the longer mass, it's kind of a there's a pro and a con right longer mass, you have to ride higher for the foil to be efficient, but you get more freedom to deal with, you know, before your foil is popping out. With the longer mass, you can kind of get under some of the whitewater a little bit, I feel like it maybe is a little easier. But the flip side like
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:45)
Yeah.
Steve Tobis (1:00:50)
it's hard to punch the foil out on an 85 mast, like where it breaches. Or with the 75 mast, even if a wave's coming in and it's like the lifts coming through and you're trying to go like this, with a 75 mast, it's really easy to launch out the back. Where with the 85, I feel like it's easier to kind of stay in the water. So usually I'm riding the 85, but also like tide dependent, you know, if we get a really low tide and there's only two feet of water on the reef, like that doesn't work. So then I'll go with a little shorter mast.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Nice. Are those the two that you normally use 85 and 75?
Steve Tobis (1:01:23)
Yep. 75 85. I used to ride an 80 like I when I was on Unifoil, I had the progression 800 mass. And you know, like that length is good too. I just more when I was buying mass, I didn't want to have like, too tight of an increment between them. And like 85 is for me, that's kind of a really good catch all size. Like that's what I want for towing for winging, you know, for generally for parawing, like it just covers more bases, where like towing with an 80 mass, like in bigger waves, it gets a little
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:38)
Yeah.
Steve Tobis (1:01:53)
dicey just because it's, shorter. β so really like my choices are more off of getting the most diversity out of my mass and less about what's optimal for that day. But, know, if you want to buy every mass in the book and like, yeah, you'll find the ideal mass, but like, I'm not trying to spend $8,000 on mass.
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Thank
I know it's so hard, I, I, I
just ride an 80. That's all I have just because of what you said is just, you know, the one do even kiting, man. I'm cutting with 80 and I'm kind of having fun because it pops out of the water pretty quick for, you know, to jump. And if I'm on a kite, I'm jumping, man. That's why I love the kite. I love to do just a boost and stuff like that. Um, what was, um, like your gnarliest session out there in the power wing down, winding serve.
Steve Tobis (1:02:19)
Yeah.
Yeah. Totally.
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:41)
anything that you can recall that you were like, all right, that was, that was a little bit too much.
Steve Tobis (1:02:47)
Um, I don't know. think not so much a gnarly session, but more of like a gnarlier time. It's just learning how to efficiently ride waves. Um, and like, didn't really have the smartest approach to it. Like I just tried to sail off the back and ride the biggest ones I could find and pray that it all worked out. Yeah. So like, yeah, had I been like a little bit smarter, I probably would have just sat like on the inside and did that. But I figured why not just jump in off the deep end. Um, and like there was a
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:02)
That's what we all do. Come on Steve, just get the biggest one.
Mm.
Steve Tobis (1:03:14)
couple sessions where like you go down and you get cleaned up and you get separated from your from your parawing and I kind of call it durability testing to make sure that you know they can they hold together when you're in some surf. But I that was like, probably not super fun. But it was like the payoff was worth it. Definitely have one where like it was a bigger day riding on the outside and like I was starting to figure it all out and then I went down.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:20)
Mm.
Yep.
Steve Tobis (1:03:41)
got separated from the pair away and this wave like it just sucked the parrying down. And like I couldn't find it. So now I'm out there swimming with my board, like trying to hold everything together and find this pair away. I find it and it's stuck maybe like six or seven feet underwater. So like the white water sucked it down. The bar was floating, but the canopy was full of water. So it was like, like this underwater and I couldn't reach it. So now I'm like,
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:45)
Mm-hmm.
Cheers.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (1:04:08)
in the waves getting worked trying to figure out like how do I get to this thing? I tried to dive down and like my my leash was like getting taught. And then like waves are still coming in. So I'm like, man, what am gonna do? So I ended up taking my leash off. I held on to it with one hand I dive down as far as I could. And I was able to like just grab the bar. So now I'm like, stretched like this underwater holding my board here, the parawing down here. And I'm like trying to pull it up, but it's full of water.
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:18)
Mmm.
What a mess.
Steve Tobis (1:04:36)
So it's like pulling a trash bag full of water through, you know, to get it up. And that wasn't happening. So I ended up like, just, I had to come back up for air again, go back down. And then I just like fed one line through my hand to get to the leading edge. So I kind of just pulled it up like this underwater. Once I got a hold of that leading edge, then I can swim it up to the surface and like everything was fine. But it was kind of just this like having to troubleshoot while it's like, you know,
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:40)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (1:05:01)
six foot waves just pounding and you're getting cleaned up and like trying to not get pushed too far in or out to stay where the parawing is like, yeah, that was probably one of the like gnarlier things, but you know, it's all part of paying dues and figuring it out. I learned real quick that like, don't don't do that. Yeah, it's still one piece like I've kind of beat the crap out of these things and they've they've I haven't had one blow up on me yet.
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:04)
Cheers.
Yeah.
How did the pairing survive?
It's good.
Mmm. You're exploding your hand.
Steve Tobis (1:05:27)
So that means my next sessions, it's going to fall apart. You know, that's, that's how it goes. Right. But no, I've, I've
put all of these wings that I have through like a pretty, I call it substantial durability test. Like I've lost them in waves. I've intentionally flung them into, into white water to see what's going to happen. And they've, I haven't had one break on me yet, which is like pretty impressive.
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:44)
Mm.
Yeah, I think, I think they're really, um, standing the durability test here in Australia as well. I haven't heard an issue yet, but I spoke with Cynbad and she said that one, someone had a, uh, they got caught in a wave or something and it just totally destroyed the parawing. guess it's kind of luck as well, but I think that's, go ahead.
Steve Tobis (1:06:07)
Yeah, totally
like it. I think there's a lot that a lot of variables that happen when when you go down in a wave that like, you know, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. And I think a lot of it, I've just kind of gotten lucky. So that once that luck runs out, then I'll have a nice, a nice shred of canvas to swim in one day. But until then.
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:27)
Mmm,
it'll happen man. Do you use any safety gear that's worth talking about? I think it's always nice for us to touch on it just so people don't do stupid stuff out there and like and then we're we're guilty for it
Steve Tobis (1:06:38)
Totally.
So I like for riding waves, I kind of look at, you know, my, my body is the ultimate piece of safety gear. Like just making sure that I'm physically fit, conditioned, capable of swimming and whatever the conditions are that I'm out in. Like that's, I think the first and foremost thing. β I also started like last summer I downwind and I took a mast to the head and got like six or seven stitches. Yeah. That was like really suboptimal. I'm like,
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:50)
Mm.
Damn.
Steve Tobis (1:07:07)
way out at the top of the run, like everyone's gone. I'm kind of by myself and now I love this like head wound. I'm just bleeding all over the place. So was like, my only choice was to basically finish the downwind run and like, hope I don't pass out. that was like a, I wouldn't say like a wake up call, but kind of just a reassessment of like, what am I, what am I doing? β like how do I mitigate that? So I started like, I always wear a helmet now or a bump cap, you know, something to just, you know, protect your head. β for downwinding like
Daniel Paronetto (1:07:14)
Jeez.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (1:07:36)
We always wear a PFD, have a phone, I carry water, kind of just general communication, stuff like that. Cause things just happen, you know, that's an inevitable. And staying in touch with whoever you go with. Like I've had, you know, Darwin runs where I break a paddle and it's like, now I'm going to swim for, you know, three hours. So you just hop on the group chat and I share my location and say, Hey, broke my paddle. I'm swimming to here. So people can see where I'm at. And if they, you know, want to come find me, which they never do.
Daniel Paronetto (1:07:59)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (1:08:05)
you know, at least like, yeah, he's, he's good. He'll make it in eventually. β just like having communication is huge. β and then, know, in the waves, if it gets to a point where. Like you, you aren't comfortable making sure you have layers of safety involved, you know, rather that's having, you know, someone doing safety in the lineup or having someone watching for you. Like there's just every day is different. Every wave is different. Every situation is different. There isn't a blanket approach, but I think that
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:06)
You'll be alright. Steve, he'll be fine.
Hmm.
Steve Tobis (1:08:35)
having layers of safety is super important. And then not only that, but knowing how to use all of your safety gear. You're knowing like if you carry a tourniquet, do you know how to put it on? Like how do you get to it? If you carry an E-Perm, have you popped it? Does your phone work in its phone pouch? Can you use your watch when it's wet? Like little things like that, that, you know, just cause you carry it doesn't mean it's going to help you. Like you still have to interact with it. So, but the other thing, yeah, just having layers of safety, practicing with your equipment and making sure that
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:41)
Yeah.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Tobis (1:09:04)
you know, if something happens, you know what you're gonna do and have a plan and just staying calm regardless of whatever's going on.
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:11)
Yeah. And I think that's where, you know, being out there, being a waterman like you are and experiencing the ocean and being like being okay, being out there. There are some days that that was one time that I was trying to cross the Bay from the North to the South and it's like a 40 K run and the wind died. was on the, on the wing back then and the wind died midway through and it took me three and a half hours to paddle, you know, a five Oh by 24 board to shore and.
you know, you just remain calm because anybody else can panic in those situations and then you're just in a world of trouble,
Steve Tobis (1:09:47)
Totally.
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:48)
Where do you see Parawinging going in 2025? What's your forecast for this year for Parawinging?
Steve Tobis (1:09:55)
β I think obviously downwinding is kind of the next big thing. Downwinding is going to get really popular. β people pushing that sport and growing with it. And then, you know, just more people getting into wave riding. think for, you know, for the Southern Hemisphere, it's coming into the wave riding season. So that's going to be a huge, like there's going to be, yeah, the Aussie guys are going to be pushing the sport now. It's kind of time to pass the baton and really excited to see what, you know, what they're doing. β
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:16)
You
Yeah.
Steve Tobis (1:10:22)
So yeah, think the sports is going to continue to blow up, continue to grow. And we're just going to keep getting better gear, better riders, new stuff. And people are going to be pushing the bar with freestyle. it's a new sport, kind of the field's wide open right now.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:32)
Mm.
Yeah, do you have any travels planned for this year that you're going to be going to?
Steve Tobis (1:10:40)
Nothing too crazy.
β just, know, the summer races, nine Molokai, Molokai to Oahu. β but that's really it hanging around here. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:48)
Is there
anything that you want to add to this conversation Steve that we haven't touched on man? That was an epic chat
Steve Tobis (1:10:55)
Man, I feel like we touched on all of it. Just thanks for having me on. Super stoked to chat and looking forward to seeing how everyone shakes out.
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:01)
Yeah, dude, thanks for coming on. β I've been so, I've been blown away by like everybody just being so open and receptive and like, nobody knows who the hell I am. They're like, yep, but we'll have a chat, man. That's cool. So it's, it's really refreshing to, cause we hear that all the time and I'm experiencing it now with trying to reach out to certain people and it's awesome, man. So thanks for being open and yeah, keep, keep the Stoke alive there during summer. Thanks brother.
Steve Tobis (1:11:13)
Yeah, man.
Totally, totally. Thanks for having me. It was super fun.
All right.
Yeah, man. Thank you.
