Daniel Paronetto (00:11)
to the Lab Rat Forla podcast. My name is Dan and today we have Felipe Hezenji. Felipe is the founder of Flow Paragliders and now also the founder of Flow kiteboarding and the designer of the Flow D-Wing. Felipe, welcome to the podcast, mate.
Felipe Rezende (00:29)
Great to be here. Thank you for the invite.
Daniel Paronetto (00:31)
Yeah, I've been dying to get a designer in here to talk about parrowing design, how did everything happen, and how did you guys come up with such a good product? before we get into all of those things, we really like to talk about your history and understand a little bit about your history in sports. And obviously paragliding is a big part of your life. So tell us a little bit about you and how did you end up creating Flow paragliders?
Felipe Rezende (01:00)
Alright, that was a fun journey. I grew up in a very windy place on the coast, so I've been involved in windy sports since my early age. I was really into windsurfing and surfing.
And I was a little bit late to join the kite surfing crew. I think I had a really amazing group of friends there. We all kind windsurfed together. They switched to kite surfing and I kind of stayed windsurfing for a little longer. I don't know why. just, probably at that time I had this amazing kit that I didn't want to get rid of. So I kept it and I kept it windsurfing.
and I realised that I was windsurfing by myself while all my friends were kitesurfing as a group. I kind of, I twisted my arm and then went kitesurfing and I enjoyed kitesurfing, it was cool. Yeah, so that's kind of how I kind of got involved with wind sports and then from there my wife decided to...
learn to kitesurf. But in kitesurfing and windsurfing I always liked to kitesurf and windsurf in the waves. But to teach my wife to kitesurf we had to go to flat water sports. So I decided then to make it interesting for me. I bought a foil kite, like a foil to learn to kitefoil. So that's kind of, that's how my journey into kitefoiling started.
Daniel Paronetto (02:30)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (02:46)
And I really liked it, I really enjoyed kitesurfing. So it was a cool thing, because while my wife was learning to kitesurf, I was learning to kite foil. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (02:54)
Nice.
was that transition from kite surfing to kite foiling?
Felipe Rezende (02:59)
I was pretty smooth. Once I got, I learned to kite foil. Never went back to kite surfing anymore. Only when the wind was really strong and the waves were big. And that's when I, I still do a little bit when the waves are big here. And there's a good wind direction. I still go kite surfing with a surfboard. But yeah, and just...
Daniel Paronetto (03:06)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, nice.
Felipe Rezende (03:29)
like the last three years I think I switched from kite foiling to wing foiling. Yeah, I think I have a very curious kind of mind. I like to experience different sports. And what I noticed as well, like when I get into a sport, I really dive into a sport. I really want to explore what the...
Daniel Paronetto (03:33)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (03:57)
sport wants to offer and if I look back you know my history with windsurfing I used to kind of take part in competitions in both wave riding and also in racing I really like the racing aspect of sports you know like I used to do first was like slalom back in the day there was a lot of slalom racing which was really cool like really windy places and then later more technical we got the formula the really wide boards but um
Daniel Paronetto (03:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
racing. Nice.
Yeah.
Felipe Rezende (04:26)
But I could only do for a couple of years because it was really expensive to get up with the latest and greatest kind of gear. Yeah. then. Yeah, so I'm originally from Brazil, the northeast coast of Brazil, a place called Natal, which is very windy all year round. So it's really good for kite surfing, windsurfing. And I moved to Australia 25 years ago after I finished uni. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (04:36)
And you're originally from Brazil.
Mm-hmm.
And
Yeah,
nice. What did you study in university?
Felipe Rezende (04:55)
Yeah.
architecture. So I always had this kind of, which kind of ties up with the history of flow, I think. I always had this strong attraction to design. So I graduated as an architect. So all the things that I use, I make them or design them. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (05:09)
Hmm.
Nice. It's the best way to do it, isn't it? I'll just create one.
So how did paragliding get into your life? Was that back in Brazil where you started to paraglide?
Felipe Rezende (05:30)
Then was back in Brazil as well. On the northeast coast of Brazil it's a really good place to paraglide as well. Like it's a really... If you want to fly big distances, if you want to break world records, that's where you go to. Yeah. So, but initially I started flying on the cliffs on the coast and then progressed to the inland sites. So the interaction I had with paragliding was initially with friends flying on the coast and then with all these pros coming...
Daniel Paronetto (05:51)
then
Felipe Rezende (06:01)
to my state to break world records. And it was really fascinating back then because I realized, wow, paragliders are very similar to surfers, because I was a really keen surfer as well. So as a surfer, as a kite surfer, and as a paraglider, you see the forecast coming and you get super excited. Like, you know, the wind's coming, or the big waves are coming. As a paraglider, you see like, wow, the conditions are coming. It's gonna be pumping. It's gonna, you're gonna.
Daniel Paronetto (06:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Felipe Rezende (06:29)
be able to fly 300, 400 kilometers and you get super excited. So we all have this connection with nature, right? Like all the sports that are like connected to nature, have elements to nature, either wind, water, know, the, yeah, waves, they all kind of, they all notice that we are very similar. Doesn't matter what we do, but we all kind of interact with nature in similar ways.
Daniel Paronetto (06:32)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. And you started paragliding. Well, you went out and you bought a paraglider. assume you didn't build one.
Felipe Rezende (07:06)
Yeah, yeah, so I, so yeah, I had, like halfway through uni I had a, a, I call it sabbatical year, when I took a year off I went travelling, I went to live in San Diego for a year and I was a really, really keen surfer and I used to surf at La Jolla, Black's Beach, which is a very famous paragliding site, but a lot of paragliders fly on the cliffs there in La Jolla.
Daniel Paronetto (07:35)
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (07:35)
And that's that's like I got fascinated by those paragliders and that's the first thing first thing I did when I went back home was to learn to paraglide
Daniel Paronetto (07:47)
What was your first paraglider?
Felipe Rezende (07:49)
It was a really old called Airwave beginner glider that got, it was really slow. And flying that in Brazil, like on the northeast coast of Natal, I got blown over the back, which is really dangerous. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (08:06)
Some normal mistakes we all do. So then you were paragliding and doing water sports and what led you to say, all right, I wanna build my own paraglider. How did that happen?
Felipe Rezende (08:09)
Yeah.
Yeah, so I so So before I actually built my first paraglider I After I've kind of finished uni, I realized the architecture wasn't for me. It was I was working in front of a computer Long hours most architects that I know the workaholics they love what they do and they spend long hours in the office and I Couldn't wait to get out of there and you know and do stuff
Daniel Paronetto (08:49)
Mm.
Felipe Rezende (08:49)
in the water or in the ocean or you know just out of the office. So I was making surfboards as a hobby so I left that was when I was living in Sydney. I set up a little workshop to make surfboards and that's what I did for 80 years. I made surfboards but then after all that time it was fascinating because it was during the time where surfboards were transitioning from purely making surfboards
shaping boards by hand to then designing them and get a CNC machine to cut your boards So I transfer all my designs to computer It was a time where there was a lot of change in the design with Kels later bringing his input to the industry making shorter and wider boards So it was part of that time, was eight years of it was fascinating But then I had to stop
Daniel Paronetto (09:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (09:47)
because the fumes, the resin fumes, really are impacting my health. And I decided to stop, it was the hardest thing to do. And my neighbour, the guy who lived in the same street on the beaches of Sydney, he used to design kites. His name was Chris and he used to make the Griffin kites. And I was constantly helping him, tweaking and, you know...
Daniel Paronetto (09:51)
wow, yeah.
Mm.
Felipe Rezende (10:15)
Developing new models and stuff and that's and I really wanted to do that That's kind of that was my next thing after surfboards. I started designing kites. So I designed kites and that's when I created floor kite boarding So and then we made a few kites and we still make kites and we sell kites But it's a very low-key kind of business In the same software that we use to make kites. We used to make paragliders So then I was
Daniel Paronetto (10:23)
Amazing.
Hmm.
Felipe Rezende (10:45)
At that time, at the same time while this was happening, I was getting more more involved with paragliding. I was sponsored by a paragliding company, I traveling the world, taking part in high level paragliding competitions. So I was deeply involved and I always had this, I don't know, I always kind of find my way to interact with designers. So was part of the R &D team of Seoul Paragliders where, yeah, we kind of...
Daniel Paronetto (10:52)
Yeah.
Felipe Rezende (11:15)
Designing high-end paragliders like the ones you take to go in competitions So when I met this guy, so I knew this guy I was in a competition and this guy told me that he lost this guy who owned the paragliding company said he's lost his designer and He needed to come to Australia to learn how to use the software that we use
Daniel Paronetto (11:17)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (11:42)
to design kite surfing kites and I said look I know how to use this software and I just want an opportunity to design paragliders and that's when he kind of brought me on board and that's how my paragliding journey started. Yeah. And then I think I worked with this guy for like three years for this company and then I decided to kind of create my own company. There was some things that happened.
Daniel Paronetto (11:48)
Amazing.
Mm.
That's amazing.
Felipe Rezende (12:12)
the company ceased to exist, it was called Airwave. And then that's how Flow Paragliders started. We started really low key, but in the R &D kind of phase. But when we kind of made the first paraglider, we entered the market from the top up, making a high-end competition glider. And it was really successful. It was in a time...
Daniel Paronetto (12:15)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Cool.
Felipe Rezende (12:42)
where there was only one glider that was equivalent in the market which was Ozon Zeno and we made one that was kind of equivalent if not better. So instantly we got dealers all around the world interested in buying our glider. So just like that we got like this
Daniel Paronetto (12:49)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
How did you get?
Felipe Rezende (13:08)
So what's interesting is like our competitions, paragliding competitions, they start in Australia in October, which is the end of the season, like in Europe, in the States. And then we have the season here and the competitions here and the of the world see what we are doing. And if you have a glider, we had a glider, in this case the XC Racer 1, it was, you won all the competitions in Australia and then...
That's how we
Daniel Paronetto (13:38)
everybody
said, okay, there's something there and everybody wanted your...
Felipe Rezende (13:41)
There's something special there.
Yeah, and then if you were a dealer and you didn't sell ozone and you wanted to compete, you want to do well, you had no option to buy an ozone glider. So we award the company that came with an alternative. Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (13:55)
How cool.
Amazing. That's
such a cool story, man. I am an industrial designer by trade as well. Very frustrated industrial designer, because I never got to work in industrial design. I got into graphic design. So to see you follow your passion and say, this is what I want to do. This is the industry I want to be in. And yeah, it's very inspiring, man. I love that story.
Felipe Rezende (14:01)
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah. Yeah, but that was like,
I condensed probably like 15 years of my life there, 15, 20 years of my life. You know, it felt like it was gradual changes. But when I lay out like that, it's like crazy, but it was very gradual and then a slow kind of steady progression from one area to another. And I think every kind of industry that I was part of helped with
Daniel Paronetto (14:30)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Felipe Rezende (14:47)
with the other, you know, my design background, know, and surfboards and the transition from transferring the designs I had that I built by hand to the computer gave me a really good sense of how the changes can affect the design, how gradual the changes you have to do when you're kind of in the prototyping process. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (14:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's so cool that you mentioned that
because I think now everything is so digital that I think designers, lose that touch of understanding what a centimeter here or there will do in practice. And you were in that transition phase where you experienced the tactile feeling and then the feeling when you're doing it to the computer. And that's, I think that would have helped you a lot.
Felipe Rezende (15:16)
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah,
I think it's more like the visualization that you kind of lose touch when you're doing everything in a computer. I tried to visualize and have an image in my mind of what I wanted to design before I could actually get into the computer to design. Because having, like when you're crafting something with your hands, you see it, right? It's 3D, it's like you can touch and can feel it, the texture to it. But when you're doing a computer,
Daniel Paronetto (15:36)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Mmm.
Felipe Rezende (16:02)
It's very digital, it's hard to visualize, even though most design software you have today are 3D based.
Daniel Paronetto (16:13)
Do you have
any like airflow simulations in those softwares as well? Is that something that you can measure or that's something that you just do in practice?
Felipe Rezende (16:22)
Yeah, the design software is all purely design software, but you can have plugins where you generate the 3D models to then run. Yeah, that's right. You have to kind of interact with all the software.
Daniel Paronetto (16:35)
the airflow simulations and yeah, nice.
And then, so what is, like you started your brand and what does flow stand for? Is it just that state of flow that you're in when you're doing things or is there a deeper meaning?
Felipe Rezende (16:47)
That's
I think that's initially flow we started with the surfboards, you know, makes a lot of sense I think but when when kiteboarding Came about after the surfboards. I always called the flow three because I like the flows for us it stands for the For the love of Wind Water and Waves like the three the W in cube If this is the state of flow, but but it's also for the love of wind
Daniel Paronetto (17:10)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (17:17)
water and waves. That's what we do. Right?
Daniel Paronetto (17:18)
Nice, nice. Well, everything
that you've done in your life so far and nice. like that. So.
Felipe Rezende (17:22)
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you
know, it's part of who I am. very curious. I like to experiment. Some people, like when they do one sport, they stick to one sport and they get good at it and they create all their relationships around that sport. And that's what they do for the rest of their life. And that's fine. And that's amazing. But I'm very curious. I like to experiment and explore different...
Daniel Paronetto (17:30)
Mmm.
Mm.
Felipe Rezende (17:49)
I'm always looking for something new. I don't get bored to what I do, but I'm just curious. I still have windsurfing gear here. Sometimes I take my windsurfing gear because I love the feeling. It's not that I get bored or what's the next thing. I like to sometimes go back to the old kind of activities.
Daniel Paronetto (17:50)
Yeah.
And you reduced your winter. Nice. Yeah.
Yeah, look, and I resonate with this idea of experimentation because this is what this podcast is all about being a lab rat in the experiment of foiling. So try it all. Try winging, try kite foiling. I can't believe like more people don't kite foil. I love kite foiling. Maybe because it was my first foiling discipline, but there's something about kite foiling that is just magical. I, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's.
Felipe Rezende (18:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's awesome.
To be able to go to places, right? Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (18:48)
Because it's you do it. I, at least I do it when it's 10 to 50 knots, when it's a little bit lighter, everything's quiet, you know, and then you have a sense of just calmness, but then you can also jump and do these amazing things. So I just love it. So do it all is, is my motto. Absolutely. so from there you, where, where did you get the idea of, all right, so I will now do a pair wing and where did you see a pair wing? Like what, when were you first exposed to a pair wing?
Felipe Rezende (18:54)
Hmm. Hmm.
Hmm.
So, like so right now my main activities I'm completely hooked to foiling right? This is I mean my main activity is paragliding but by It's my profession. That's what I do when I wake up from Monday to Friday. I run a paragliding company And I find it important to have parallel activities to paragliding because
Daniel Paronetto (19:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (19:46)
So it's not only one thing, so my mind is, it's diverted from what I need to do, because I've designed, I like to keep it fresh. So when I go paragliding, I was fresh and I'm most constantly excited. So foiling is my exit, kind of, when I get excitement away from paragliding. So I've been a really keen, for the last three, four years, I've been a really keen prone foiler, kite foiler, and recently a wing foiler. So I like, I like, like proning a lot that.
Daniel Paronetto (19:50)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (20:15)
kind of my surfing background. I love groaning. And I think it was last winter, I was like blown away. I was fascinated by the darwinding scene. And I was like, I wanna do this. I wanted to learn to darwind, right? Because that's how we do it in paragliding. In paragliding, the wind's blowing in the mountain. You take off against the wind.
Daniel Paronetto (20:18)
Yeah, plenty sick.
Hmm, well you do you learn how to paddle and do all that stuff?
How hard was that?
Felipe Rezende (20:45)
You get high and you go downwind-ing in the air. You fly 100 kilometres, you fly 300 kilometres, you know, and then usually you have someone that follows you and you get, you know, similar. It's a very similar concept to downwind-ing, but in the air, right? So I bought a long downwind board at A4. Initially I bought that because I was looking at well, I didn't benefit from it.
Daniel Paronetto (20:47)
Yep. Nice.
How cool.
Yep.
Felipe Rezende (21:15)
was doing is like I don't need to learn to pedal I can just prone. I bought the hand pedals right so I tried and it was like that I have a busy life I run a company we are very busy with the paragliding side of the business I don't have the time to learn to the pedal up so just I've done too many other things
Daniel Paronetto (21:16)
Mm-hmm.
with the prone, god.
So hard man, my god.
Yeah.
Mm-mm.
Felipe Rezende (21:44)
I just didn't have the time and I didn't want to dedicate the time. So I thought like, yeah, I'll get this long, downwind board. I'll get into downwind-ing without the pedal ups. Now, that was unsuccessful. I couldn't do it. Yeah. I think, like there's some conditions, especially where he's from between like Bara and Balena there. There's a, there's a, there's stretch of the coast.
Daniel Paronetto (21:53)
Mm-hmm.
so hard. think even Adam Bennett, I would love to talk to him about it, but I think he, the success rate is very low. You have to be.
Felipe Rezende (22:13)
when you blow the noisestas, the bumps are incredible. You can do it there. Perfect, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (22:15)
Yeah. Conditions would have to be prime for that. Yeah. So you started
your down winding journey. Did you get to try the paddle as well or did you?
Felipe Rezende (22:27)
So I
tried and I just couldn't do it because I was never a SUP foiler. I SUP. Sorry, I couldn't SUP. I never SUP'd, you know, in the waves and stuff. especially on the narrow 18 inches wide board. I just couldn't stand up on this thing. So it wasn't for me. And I kind of gave up until I saw the BRM Pyro Wing. I was like, wow, that's a...
Daniel Paronetto (22:36)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Felipe Rezende (22:57)
that sounds interesting, you know? And straight away, after I saw it, was like, wow, I can design something like that as well.
Daniel Paronetto (22:59)
Amazing.
Is that where you mind when immediately is like, I can do that. Yeah.
Felipe Rezende (23:12)
immediately, I was like,
there's a solution for that winning. Yeah, but you know, like I was busy and stuff, but I did open the computer and I started designing it, because this is what I love to do, I love to design and creating new products and stuff. But I never, and I actually, played for, I can't remember how many days I played with the design in the computer, but then to a friend of mine called me or he shared something, he called,
Daniel Paronetto (23:18)
That's so cool.
Yep.
Felipe Rezende (23:43)
He's a paraglider friend, he paraglides, he also foils. And he says, oh, what do think about this? I think it was in the beginning, you know? Like, I don't know, it was September, June, last year,
Daniel Paronetto (23:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's when they came out.
Felipe Rezende (23:59)
that's
when we started the design process. Because he was already designing and he's like, hey, what do think about this? I was like, yeah, it looks amazing. It's like, yeah, if you make a prototype, I can help you testing. I was like, that's kind of what I needed, right? So then that's how we started. And it was just so easy for us because the paraglider is...
Daniel Paronetto (24:06)
Yeah.
Nice.
Hmm.
Felipe Rezende (24:25)
The place where we make our paragliders, paragliding factory made it for us really quickly, really easily.
Daniel Paronetto (24:31)
Yeah. I was
going to ask you that. mean, coming from paragliders, you create, you know, enormous pair wings, essentially enormous, you know, there was like a hundred bridles. Like how easy was it to just say, yeah, three meter paring easy, or, know, how hard was it to design that thing?
Felipe Rezende (24:49)
Yeah, so initially I thought like, this is gonna be easy. this is gonna be easy. And I made a first prototype and I trimmed the same way that I trim a kite. It didn't fly well. It was collapsing, it didn't fly well at all. So then I ordered a new bridle set and I put the new lines into the existing canopy. And then it, boom, it changed completely.
Daniel Paronetto (25:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (25:19)
I trimmed in the same way I trim a paraglider. And it just straight away was flying really well, but you couldn't deep power. Every time you wanted to deep power, it would collapse it. And so it was hard to ground. It was hard to go, even to stay in the same, because it it felt like, oh, this, we get it overpowered too quickly too soon with this thing. And that's when the double said, like, hey,
Daniel Paronetto (25:22)
Interesting.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (25:48)
You know, there's paragliders that you make that are uncollapsible. I mean, we call it uncollapsible, but they can be collapsed. We have this new technology of paragliders there called the parakites.
Daniel Paronetto (26:06)
What the parakites? God, another thing now. What's a parakite?
Felipe Rezende (26:08)
Yeah, they are another thing.
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of similar terminology. like paragliders that are coming from the 4Kite kind of technology, they have a very solid leading edge, meaning that you can really change the angle of attack and almost hold the front lines, pull the front lines down and the glider doesn't collapse. So you can fly those paragliders.
Daniel Paronetto (26:29)
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (26:35)
You know, in a similar way as you can fly a hang glider, you can dive and can swoop. And traditionally, a paraglider, if you do that, it collapses. So then, then, Dobbo asked me, it's like, oh, can you do a parawing that has that technology? Initially, my first reaction was like, hmm, I don't know if you can, because it's only a single surface. Yes.
Daniel Paronetto (26:39)
Yep. Yep.
Hmm.
Since the single skin. so those,
I see. So the kites are double skin and you had to trans.
Felipe Rezende (27:06)
Yeah, I the paraglider,
most paragliders have a double surface. Yeah, so...
Daniel Paronetto (27:09)
Yeah, excuse my paragliding ignorance here.
So transferring a double skin design to that single skin was the aim. That's what you were trying to do this.
Felipe Rezende (27:17)
So.
So he planted that seed and know and then
that's when I sat in the computer with that kind of challenge thinking yeah I think there's a chance that we can make a powdering that you can actually depower and then go upwind. And then I made a prototype and it worked straight away. the you know for most people a paragliding
Daniel Paronetto (27:45)
amazing.
Felipe Rezende (27:53)
The wing, it might look simple, but there's a lot more than if it's the eye. There's a lot of technology there, there's a lot of R &D, there's a lot of try and error to get to that product that you can actually deploy right and then depart in a right upwind with a solid leading edge.
Daniel Paronetto (28:02)
Yeah.
Mm.
And when you were testing this, the first iterations of it, were you testing in the water already or just on land in the water? And yeah.
Felipe Rezende (28:25)
No, in the water, yeah. In the water. We have a
little place here, there's a little bay, and we can test that it is really good for testing any wind sports.
Daniel Paronetto (28:36)
And how hard was it for you to learn how to just get up and get riding? Was it okay? Or was it, did it take you a little while?
Felipe Rezende (28:43)
Yeah, I think they want... because, you know, coming from winging. think it's the kitesurfing and winging. If you kitesurf and you wing, you pick it up in one hour. Yeah. Or less. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (28:48)
Mm-hmm.
100%. Yeah. And look,
I think it's so cool to hear the story because I'm talking to everyone that I can right now. And I'm understanding this evolution of the sport where, you know, it started with this pocket wing, which was almost there. And then Greg refined it to something very similar to what we all have now. And that made it accessible with the one bar and everything working. And then I think what you brought to the table.
was this stability in the paragraph and the pair wing. Like I, I had the chance to, to start power winging with the BRM and it absolutely blew my mind what it could do. And like you could get riding and everything. then when I flew your D wing, I just didn't understand how well it flew. Like it just stayed there and I didn't have to look at it. I didn't have to think about what I was doing on the bar. It was so intuitive to
to riding and flying. So I think you guys just knocked it out of the park with this V1 with making it really accessible, easy, predictable. like my evolution with the Flow D-Wing just went like just boom, it just went exponential when I started riding your stuff.
Felipe Rezende (29:54)
Hmm.
It was a
really cool little project for us as well because it was a revelation. didn't think initially, I didn't think, I thought I was like, don't know if we can do it. But once we received the first prototype and we went to the beach and you could depower like first, like as the first question that you asked, first we do fly the thing on the sand, you know, before we get in the water and we tweak, we adjust some lines, adjust the brake lines. We do all the...
Daniel Paronetto (30:23)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (30:38)
tweaking and adjustment all land. Once it's perfect, when it's flying the way we want it to do, and then we get in the water. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it was like, was one of those ooh-ha moments. Like, yeah, it worked.
Daniel Paronetto (30:45)
Nice, nice. That must be such a cool.
man, I
can't even imagine that feeling of just creating something like that and just having the, your product do exactly what you want it to do. And just that's like, that excitement would have been just amazing to be around, man. Well, congrats for that, man. was, that was, that's awesome. don't like now, like I'm imagining that every time that you get out there on the water and you're testing things, everything is getting.
Felipe Rezende (31:04)
It was super exciting. it was. Thank you.
Daniel Paronetto (31:20)
better so fast and I'm sure that there's something better that you guys are working on already, but like, how do you decide this is ready to go to the market and it's not perfect? I'm sure in your mind it's like, we can still improve it so much more, but when do you make that call? Like this is, this is what we're going to be launching, knowing that it's going to be obsolete very quickly. Like.
Felipe Rezende (31:40)
Yeah, so once it's flying well and we iron out all the little imperfections and we receive like a pre-production sample from the factory that can be replicated, then we enter production. And the timing was just perfect for us because I think we started in September, October, by November we had a product and we were able to enter the market.
Just before Christmas, which is for us, like when we released the paragliders, we can never time it so well. And it was, yeah, for us it was just like, wow, the perfect storm. It was a really good thing for us. And the feedback we receive, it's incredible. It's really positive. People are really stoked. And we see a lot of people who used to wing.
Daniel Paronetto (32:16)
Mmm serendipity,
Hmm.
Felipe Rezende (32:37)
just power wing you know and what I can say I think that this space the the future for power wing is bright you know especially now we have so many bright minds putting time energy thought into designing a product and I think this is just gonna exponentially grow you know guys like you just a dedicated podcast to power wings you know have all the other companies design power wings
Daniel Paronetto (32:39)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mm.
This summer will be crazy,
Felipe Rezende (33:07)
Yeah, I think we are going to be designers be fitting off each other's inputs. And again, it's one of those fascinating places to be. There's no other better place to be as a designer. When you're kind of in the forefront of development and design and there's constant evolution as a designer, that's where you want it to be.
Daniel Paronetto (33:15)
100%.
100%.
Yeah, I am.
Felipe Rezende (33:37)
And, you know, coming from this, I think to be a designer, you have to be really curious and be really open-minded to explore new concepts and ideas. And that's what we'll be doing. We have already some, we're not kind of, you know, sitting still and watching what the others are doing. We are actually trying to improve our design. We are working on new prototypes and see what, if we can improve, see if we can.
Daniel Paronetto (33:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Awesome.
Felipe Rezende (34:07)
improve the range, see if we can make it even more stable, you know, yeah. So we are exploring, because it's a minimalistic paraglider. If you compare to a paraglider, we are paragliders in the sense, a way that paragliders is more cells. They are not more complicated. They're just harder to build. A paraglider is much
Daniel Paronetto (34:09)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Felipe Rezende (34:37)
quicker turnaround to build so we can receive prototypes much quicker. So I think the R &D happens quicker and yeah, yeah. So I don't think we need a V2 right now. I think the D-Wing is working really well and we're keen to have it in the market until there's something better out there because we feel that the D-Wing does everything. You can deploy it, you can,
Daniel Paronetto (34:41)
Nice. Oh, that's great to hear. I love it. We're going to get a V2 soon. Give us a V2. Felipe, give us a V2.
Mmm.
Yep.
Felipe Rezende (35:06)
ride it, you can demold the lawn if you want to, but if you can, if you want to go upwind, do upwind, downwind runs, you can do it. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's, it's doing what was designed to do. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (35:23)
100%. It definitely
is. Well, let's double click on that a little bit. What are the characteristics of the D-Wing? mean, when you talk about your product, what does the D-Wing do very well?
Felipe Rezende (35:36)
I think it's like, it's, I think what we, like I feel that what the D-Wing does that some of the others don't do as well is to point upwind and the ability to de-power in a stable and controlled way. You can point upwind if you're overpowered, you can hold on that position and the liddy edge is solid. You don't have the,
Daniel Paronetto (35:49)
Mm.
Felipe Rezende (36:06)
craziness, it's just nice and stable. And you can even connect to a harness line to your harness and stay in this position very similar to when you're winging, when you're going upwind with a wing. There's a little bit of a flutter because it's natural to a single surface canopy, paraglider or a paraglider wing, they will have a little bit of flutter. But that's...
Daniel Paronetto (36:17)
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (36:32)
That's nice. It feels really nice. It feels really light and the magic happens when you collapse it and you know and have it on your hands. Collapse the thing and then you go and ride the bumps. And that's what I think the magic of paddling is. It gave us more models that don't know how to pedal, do the pedal ups to enter
Daniel Paronetto (36:35)
Mm.
Get rid of it. Yeah.
Yeah, and then-
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (37:03)
The helm of downending.
Daniel Paronetto (37:05)
dude, it completely
changed the way I downwind completely. Like I was, I'm happy. learned how to paddle. think it was a good learning experience and I still enjoy doing it, but I would ride a, I would be on a downwind run paddling and I would be riding at maybe 80 % because I didn't want to fall. Like I wanted to ace the run and that was my mindset. And once you do that a few times, it's okay, but I don't chase times. like to surf.
Felipe Rezende (37:24)
Yeah, right.
Daniel Paronetto (37:33)
But I don't want to fall because if I have to paddle up 10 times, I know that my 11th paddle up will be not that great. So, and then riding smaller foils, you always go out like, oh my God, am I going to be able to paddle up? And that completely disappeared when I started powering because I know that I will get up if I don't get like, if the wind doesn't die, I know I'm going to be able to get up. I'm pushing turns so much harder now.
Felipe Rezende (37:37)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (38:01)
and trying
new things and wanting to actually fall. There was one day that I just did a turn and I fell on my butt. Like I was wanting to see how sharp I could turn. Like I would never just fall like that, you know, with the paddle because it might be that you don't get up again. I didn't get to the level where paddling up a small foil was easy. It was always like challenging. So the power winging for me opened up just this ability to try more, push so much harder.
Felipe Rezende (38:13)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (38:30)
and not
care about failing and falling out there.
Felipe Rezende (38:32)
Yeah, yeah,
because it's super easy to get up again on foil. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (38:36)
Yeah. Yeah. Once you're,
once you know you can, it's, it's, it's awesome, man.
Felipe Rezende (38:40)
Yeah,
it's a good feeling. Even like if you learn to downwind and you keep the power wing kind of half inflated going downwinding without completely deployed.
Daniel Paronetto (38:50)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Yep, and you can
do that and go a little bit on an angle to like get that power back and.
Felipe Rezende (38:59)
Yeah, it's still
good fun and if you're downwind in a day where the bumps are minimal and you have to pump, pump, pump, pump, pump, pump and you're getting tired and you can just deploy, have a rest, rest your legs, catch a bit of breath and just cruise for a little bit and then do it again. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (39:10)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And I think
the one thing that kite foiling was really good for me at the start was the amount of time that you get on foil. If you're out doing a session. So if you're out kite foiling, you're up for 90 % of the session, you're actually on foil. But if you go prone foiling, you're foiling for like 20 % of the time that you're out there catching waves. So being able to, like you said, rest and, know, deploy the power wing and still be on foil. You're always.
Felipe Rezende (39:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (39:48)
still learning how to ride a foil, which I think is really important for any sport, like foiling discipline. Time on foil is something I look at always.
Felipe Rezende (39:51)
Hmm.
Yeah,
yeah, and then you can like, it opens up new feelings, right? Because you can write a smaller board. Yeah, a smaller foil again, you know? Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (40:04)
that's amazing.
Yeah.
You, you brought some interesting innovations to the flow that, I felt that were really helpful when I was writing. And I think one of them was the leading edge being a different color. when I was writing, the BRM, had it, you know, in my hand and it was really tough to understand like where it would be pointing when I redeployed, the color coded lines. Like, did you bring all that from.
Felipe Rezende (40:24)
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (40:38)
paragliding? that like...
Felipe Rezende (40:39)
Yeah,
so that's standard for paragliding. So to sail a paraglider, a paraglider has to be certified. runs through a process and the norm is you follow the European norm. So you get a stamp on your paraglider that's been certified by the European norm, meaning that the glider won't break in the air.
Daniel Paronetto (41:08)
Yep, hopefully.
Felipe Rezende (41:08)
And also,
if eventually collapses, will recover. It will reopen. And there's five different classes of paragliders, from beginners to more advanced, more performance-oriented designs. The beginner paragliders, it will reopen, will collapse and reopen without any pilot input. And to make it easy to see and to...
Daniel Paronetto (41:15)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (41:38)
kind of handle the paraglider, everything's color coded. The lines, the front lines, what we call the A lines, happen to happen, have the, that's the D wing bar. So now we have the color coded bar as well, which is blue, that points up to the sky, which I like that kind of concept. So in paragliding we call the front lines the A lines.
Daniel Paronetto (41:44)
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (42:08)
The second row of lines we call it the B and if you had a third one would be C and the last ones which is always in paragliding, most of the time it's always yellow, are the brake lines. So A, B's and brake lines. That's how we call it in the paragliding. That's kind of how I kind of call it in a way. But when I'm talking to people who not paragliders, I say the front lines.
Daniel Paronetto (42:20)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (42:36)
and the brake lines, most people understand the brake lines. Yeah, and the middle lines. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (42:39)
Yeah.
So I think, yeah, I love that transfer of, you know,
Felipe Rezende (42:45)
Yeah, so
it was, it was, because it makes it so much easier. You have more lines on the paraglider. Sometimes you have four rows of lines before you have the brakes, so have five attachment points. And if every row is color coded, it makes so much easier to grab whatever you need to do, because for a paraglider to take off, inflate, you pull the A-lines and it's kind of similar to what you do when you're de-powering it.
Daniel Paronetto (42:55)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nice.
Felipe Rezende (43:14)
You kind
of you hold the A-lines a bit more and you're releasing proportionally the B's and the brake lines. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (43:21)
Yep. I loved,
I love this, the terminology of things because everything is so new and I don't even know that when I'm talking about it, I'm using the right terminology. So can you dissect the, the, the power wing for us and tell us what these things, what, what are the, what's how everything is named? It's like the leading edge, that the leading edge, that how you call it.
Felipe Rezende (43:42)
Yeah, so I think the main thing to know is on the D-Wing, the leading edge is the white part of the canopy. And you have the trailing edge, which is the rear part of the canopy. And you have the wingtips. One of the things in paragliding that we pay a lot of attention to is those little plastic rods.
Daniel Paronetto (44:07)
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (44:07)
And when we're trying to fold it away for extended periods of time, we're trying to constantine it in a way where you're kind of not putting too much excessive bend on those things. So we're trying to kind of constantine it. I'm trying to put them all kind of together like that. And I'm trying to keep this section so the rods
Daniel Paronetto (44:19)
Nice.
Yeah, I could see that. Nice.
Felipe Rezende (44:37)
kind of, they're probably like a palm, 20 centimeters long. And when I fold it, I fold it, so when they fold it again, they are kept in a way, they are kind of preserved, you don't bend them. Yeah, so that's kind of how I try to keep it. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (44:39)
Mm-hmm.
Nice. Okay, so.
Mm-hmm.
Nice. I have
to redo a video. re I put a video out telling people how to pack the pair wing that I will need to update after this chat because that that helps a lot understand what areas of the pair wing you need to just be a little bit delicate with and but when you're putting it on a belt, dude, I don't think about that. I just stuff it in there.
Felipe Rezende (45:19)
No, yeah, that's
okay. you only, yeah. But if you're packing away, because that area is especially important because it's the leading edge, that's where, that's the area that there's a separation between the air goes to the top and the bottom surface. And the plastic rods are there just to help keeping the airfoil loyal to the design. So if it's, if you don't pay too much attention, if it's
Daniel Paronetto (45:31)
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (45:48)
Implementally banned you might change the flight characteristics of the your d-wing And you might lose a little bit of the reflex I don't know so it's it's good to pay attention You know it might Look simple, but it's a very sophisticated kind of design and you and and and it's an airfoil You know it's like Imperial it's a little mini aircraft
Daniel Paronetto (45:54)
Yeah. Yeah, gotcha. Interesting.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Felipe Rezende (46:19)
yeah, I think that's the only part of the powder wing that you should pay attention to. The other thing that's also very important, that I, it's not to store your powder wing when it's wet, or it's still like, you know, damp or something. Yeah, because there's two enemies to the ripstop. It's the UV lights and moisture. So if you leave it...
Daniel Paronetto (46:34)
Mm.
Damp, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (46:48)
You know, let it dry before you throw it away. First, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (46:51)
Yeah, I leave mine just, I just hang it.
It's cool because if you just put your bar upside down and just like stash it somewhere, it actually stays in a little bit of a position that it just drives itself over overnight. then, yeah.
Felipe Rezende (46:57)
Hmm.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, live in the garage and like, yeah, someone
connected up high and yeah, next morning, solid drive. Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (47:09)
Yeah, good tips, good tips. And you guys
just recently launched a couple of new sizes. saw a post recently. What's the size range? What's the range of the D-wings now?
Felipe Rezende (47:21)
So we realized that there was a feedback we received. There was a bit of a gap between the 3 and the 4.2. So then we just released the 3.7. we realized here that there was many instances that we overpowered on the 3.0. So we needed a smaller size. So we've not released the 2.5. But looks like we might even need a size smaller.
Daniel Paronetto (47:28)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I think so, man. I would look... Yeah.
Felipe Rezende (47:48)
maybe 2.0, 1.9 or 1.8, something like that.
yeah, that's a smaller size will come.
Daniel Paronetto (47:57)
So 2.5,
3.7, 4.2, 5.5. Yeah, cool. Yeah, I think the 3.7 will be my go-to here in Melbourne. I think in that 20 knot range, it would be such a good pair of wing. Yeah, sometimes I'm a little overpowered on the 4.2.
Felipe Rezende (48:01)
Three points there.
Five five, yeah. Yeah.
Mmm, yeah.
I think so too, yeah. And what I've realised
as well over time is like, it's... That's what I will be trying to do. Rather than going... If I have a choice to pick up a bigger board and a smaller para wing, that's what I do. Rather than a bigger para wing and my current board. If I have two boards, the board that I normally use, it's a 610 by 100 litres.
Daniel Paronetto (48:32)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (48:45)
And that covers most of the range. But if I have a proper downwind boarder like eight foot long, I can go with a smaller para wing and a bigger foil. And I think that's the best, the kind of, a better take in para wing, I feel, rather than...
Daniel Paronetto (48:54)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I think it, it, look, I like both. like, I like the feeling of having a small board, but the feeling of riding a small parrying is so much fun. just turns easy and you can do a lot of like, bring a lot of the kite movements into it. And it just responds a little bit better. I had a session the other day and I was, what was it? It was around 18, 20 knots and I could have gone small board for two meter parrying, but I decided to go with the.
Felipe Rezende (49:12)
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (49:30)
downwind board in the three meter and that worked because, and a slightly bigger foil as well so I could pop out. And that was a lot of fun. That was a lot of fun.
Felipe Rezende (49:33)
Mmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, nice. yeah. There's a... Yeah, the wind is solid, then there's no problem, you can use a small wing. I feel that if it's struggling with wind, then it's better to use the bigger wing, the bigger wing you have.
Daniel Paronetto (49:50)
Mm.
Yeah, and it's overtime.
Yeah, it didn't, that was not how I started. I'm just trying to explore now as well. what, how, what's the feeling like? Because I think every sport you go, yeah, okay, let's go smallest foil, smallest board. And then you start coming back up and you find a medium. and I'm thinking about what my next board will be. And it will be a power winging board. and I'm thinking about those dimensions and, yeah, it's just cheers to see where it's going to go. But,
Felipe Rezende (50:14)
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (50:28)
I think one thing that I get asked a lot for the pay is the, um, what is the wind range of these sizes? And I think it's kind of an impossible question to answer properly because there's different rider weights and conditions and all of that stuff. Um, you know, the foils that people are writing and, and, and everything, but if you were to give an indication for people that are looking to get a D wing, what are the, like the wind range?
Felipe Rezende (50:39)
Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (50:56)
for the size that you have.
Felipe Rezende (50:58)
Yeah, okay, so if you think that, you know, like the ocean starts to white cap, white capping when it's around 40 knots, if it's a couple of knots stronger than that, like 60 knots, I can get up and go on a 4-2. So between 60 80 knots, a 4-2, it's probably my go-to, just because it's more reliable and I can get up 80.
Daniel Paronetto (51:07)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
How much do you weigh?
Felipe Rezende (51:27)
5 kilos, yeah, on a 610 board and like a, yeah, let's say, it's called 980S foil. Yeah, that's kind of what I normally use. And if it's, I feel that, it's a bit stronger, it's 20 plus, then the 3.0. But if you see that...
Daniel Paronetto (51:29)
Yeah, that's very important as well, the weight.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Cool.
Felipe Rezende (51:54)
You know, like sometimes if I see, yeah, the wind is about, it's to drop and it's 16 knots, 16, 18 knots, then the forecast is for wind to decrease or I'm, you know, after work I have an hour before sunset, a couple hours before sunset, I take the 55. Right? Because I want to get a session in. Yeah. Even if I'm overpowered and yeah, I still have fun on the 55. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (52:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, right. Interesting.
Hmm. I-
Yeah, you can depower
Felipe Rezende (52:24)
I can't do
power, even on the 5.5 I collapse it and I hold it with my hands rather than trying to put it away somewhere. I just hold the 5.5 out of my hands. Because usually if I'm using the 5.5 it's shorter downwind runs. Or I'm just mowing the lawn, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (52:36)
I actually go out. take
another power wing with me these days. If I know that conditions will change, they're so small. I literally have one in the belt and then one riding that I hold when I D power. And if I need to change, and that's normally between the four, two and the three. So it'd be cool to get that three, seven now. God, I have to buy another one.
Felipe Rezende (52:49)
Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (53:00)
God, all right. Just give us some more problems to think about. and I, I've been riding with the guys, in Torquay as well. And we noticed that there's a, a very big difference in rider weight. So one of the boys down there, Adam snow, he's riding normally one size up from what I'm riding. So I'm 80 kilos. He's over 90, 90, 95. I'm not quite sure how much he weighs. What's that?
Felipe Rezende (53:03)
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (53:29)
Difference like is it every 10 kilos you would go up a size or something like that?
Felipe Rezende (53:33)
yeah, it's a hard one to say because it comes to the equipment you're riding and the type of board, but also your skill. We noticed that some of the local guys here, the more, the better skills you've developed. You know, if you get a little bit of speed, you can start pumping your board and having the same kind of motion you have when you're pedaling up. And if you're pumping the Pyro Wink with that motion,
Daniel Paronetto (53:40)
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (54:00)
and you have a big foil and you can get away with much smaller foils because as soon as you start having that speed you're creating more apparent wind on the canopy and then you get more power off the wing as well and then it's a combination of both it's technique as well so yeah some guys are
Daniel Paronetto (54:04)
Mmm.
It is, but your pair
of wings are one of the only ones that accept the pump well. pumping your pair of wing works. I don't know what happens in it that it always goes back quicker to, know, like, let me, how do I say this? It actually, you regain the tension on the lines quicker to then do another pump.
Felipe Rezende (54:23)
The pump. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (54:40)
And I find it hard pumping any other power wing and yours, could just yank them and they, pump.
Felipe Rezende (54:44)
Yeah,
yeah. It's, I think it's due to the fact that the reflex, we call it reflex, but it's the tendency of the wing to stay inflated constantly. So if you think the part, the D-wing is a, call it, is a...
Daniel Paronetto (54:49)
What's the secret? Tell us the secret.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (55:11)
It's an F-4, so if you throw up in the air, will fly, like as a parachute or a paraglider or as a plane. But the way it's designed, it won't fly in a straight line like that, won't just glide. We're trying to do this. We're trying to fly up and then stall and regain energy and fly and regain speed and energy and then fly up again. So that's why when you're pumping, the leading edge is always trying to stay up, fly up.
Daniel Paronetto (55:28)
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (55:41)
What up? What up? He doesn't have the tendency to fly down.
Daniel Paronetto (55:41)
Nice.
That's game changer, man, because I feel like it's so much easier to get up when pumping and when I pump is when I push down on the foil and the board. And when I go up and when the board's going up, I try to stay very light on the board. And that's when the pairing is going out. And then it regains that tension quickly. And I'm able to pump going down again. That's how I pump. And people say, you can't pump on the pairing. I'm like, yeah, you definitely can.
Felipe Rezende (55:47)
That's... that's... yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
that's right. You can. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (56:13)
So a lot of people I think will get into parowinging now, coming from winging. think it's a very natural evolution and a lot of wingers, mean, winging has been around for a while and I think people are getting a little stagnant. Like if you're not throwing a backflip, you're kind of doing all the tricks, your tacks, your turns, and then what else. So for people that are coming from winging is like a four meter hand wing, the same power as a four meter parowing.
Felipe Rezende (56:32)
Mmm.
I think as a ruler Tom, I think that's a good analogy to start from. That's what I feel like. If I'm using my 4-2, some of the guys are using either 4-2s or 5-5s wings. Wing 4s in the water.
Daniel Paronetto (56:59)
Mm-hmm.
Because I feel the power wing has a little less power than a hand wing. Yeah. Yeah.
Felipe Rezende (57:06)
to start with, isn't it? To start, to get up on foil. A little less,
yeah, I feel, but once you're up and riding, it feels like you have more. You get overpowered quicker, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (57:14)
Yeah, is. Yeah.
The wind range is definitely something that I think in the evolution now of the design, that's, think where there's a lot of gains to be had, you know, increasing that wind range a little bit where we can actually enjoy it within like a 10, 50 knot range, which is a big ask. I know, but, I feel now the wind range is very narrow.
Felipe Rezende (57:32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, so if you see, for example, a cargo plane or a normal commercial plane, the cargo plane would have very thick wings to carry that extra weight to get up in the air earlier. And if you compare a wing foil to a pyro wing, that leading edge, inflatable leading edge, it's this.
Daniel Paronetto (57:49)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm...
Felipe Rezende (58:03)
Wow, this is big, right? And apparently
Daniel Paronetto (58:04)
Yep.
Felipe Rezende (58:05)
it's a very thin airfoil. I think once our designers start to explore with the thickness of airfoils, maybe we can have kind of the same efficiency to get up on foil. Yeah, maybe what we need to do is make a thicker airfoil similar to a wing foil. I think for its size, a wing foil is extremely efficient to get up on foil. If you compare like,
Daniel Paronetto (58:18)
Yeah, and one of the questions that came.
Mmm.
Felipe Rezende (58:32)
to kites. Like if people are using a 10 meter kite, I'm using a 4.2 wing foil. Almost half the size. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (58:39)
Mmm.
Is that just because of the way it flies? the surface, like, yeah,
I have it like, is the surface area then of a hand wing the same surface area of a power
of a four? It is, okay, so it's a.
Felipe Rezende (58:55)
yeah, yeah, that's the real
size
Daniel Paronetto (58:58)
You were talking about some terms on your website. So the flat area is if you put the para wing down on the floor, straighten out, that's the flat area of the wing projected. Um, a R maybe to touch on that. Cause that's what I think where we might've dropped off.
Felipe Rezende (59:11)
So the
projected, I think the easiest way to explain is if you fly in your kite and there's a midday sun and you see that shadow on the ground, being projected from your wing, that's the area. That varies a lot depending how much arc you have. Some canopies have a very flat arc, some canopies have a very curved arc.
Daniel Paronetto (59:26)
Yeah, gotcha.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (59:40)
So more
curved arc will give you less area. And for some designers, that's the real area. That's the area that matters. It's the projected.
Daniel Paronetto (59:52)
Gotcha. Cause that's the area that the wind will actually affect the most, right? The areas that are just straight into the wind, it's not going to actually produce that much power.
Felipe Rezende (1:00:01)
The
projected areas, yeah, what most people designers believe, that's what matters. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:08)
And then you have flat wingspan.
Felipe Rezende (1:00:11)
That's the wingspan, so it's from wingtip to wingtip. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:14)
Mm-hmm.
And the last one that to me is interesting, I'm not quite sure what it means is the glider weights.
Felipe Rezende (1:00:23)
It's the weight of the canopy. So for paragliders that matters when you're trying to decide what wing to buy to fit in the weight range, because it's all about the weight range. You have different sizes. It's all about the wing strength. It's about the wing loading, because you want a fly glider that's suited for your weight, and you take into consideration...
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:27)
Okay, so just the weight of the pair wing.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (1:00:52)
the weight of the canopy. Yeah. Yeah, so for us, I put it there so people have an idea how much it weights. for your case, and if you want to get up with a second paddle wing, you kind of expect how much you want to carry of extra weight. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:55)
Nice.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
plus the water that it gathers once you're getting out there. Yeah, cool. So in terms of improvements in the gear, and I know that there's lot of things that will improve in the coming years. What is one point that you feel that the power wings are still a little bit behind? Like where you want to improve the power wings?
Felipe Rezende (1:01:16)
That's right, yeah.
I think what I wanted
to work with, I like the concept, I like how the wing flies, know, how it depiles, how you can point upwind. But I find that sometimes to get up on foil, I wanted to have a bit more consistent pull, more grunt on that phase, the initial phase, similar to a wing foil. Right?
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:44)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm... Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, that would, that would make it easier. And.
Felipe Rezende (1:02:07)
Because sometimes you lose balance,
especially if you're in the ocean and it's gusty and you don't have the reassurance that you've fallen behind and you can put your back up. It's lacking a bit of grunt.
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:18)
Yeah.
that pendulum where, you know, when you have a wing, you obviously always have that stable pendulum to lean on. Yeah. And I think yours already is, one of probably the easiest ones to learn on because you can, you know, lean on it and be a little bit aggressive with it. And, and, know, maybe not even that, you know, let's say not careful too much of what you're doing with it and it will just stay there. but it's still hard because I think a lot of beginners.
Felipe Rezende (1:02:25)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:51)
They don't come from kiting, they don't come from winging. So maybe they're prone surfers or downwinders and they will have a steeper learning curve when compared to a kite surfer and a winger.
Felipe Rezende (1:03:03)
Yeah,
there's a guy here who wings with us. He's coming from a... ...foil drive background. Right? And he never kite, kite foiled, never kite surf, he never wing foiled. The only interaction with foiling he had was with foil drive. And he's... ...taro winging now. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:14)
Interesting.
Nice.
that's so sick to see people coming. Nice. And for...
Felipe Rezende (1:03:32)
After a month, yeah. Yeah. So he's good. He's his stock. He's...
yeah, he's... so happy.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:41)
I bet you would be,
especially with all the foil drives set up and cleaning up and yeah, anyway.
Felipe Rezende (1:03:45)
Yeah, it's a, it's a
four-drive is good, but it's a, it's, I think it's much lighter when you're up on four or when you can stash it away and have no power coming from nowhere apart from the energy in the ocean and you just tap it into that, you know, and yeah, think that's when it's, that's the most appealing thing. That's when you kind of hooked, when you experienced that for the first time, that feeling of riding the endless wave.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:53)
yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you-
You want to chase that for sure. The, for, people that are getting into power winging and they buy a flow and they're like, all right, what do I do with it? What are some good land drills for people to practice on land and understand how it flies?
Felipe Rezende (1:04:16)
Yeah.
I think so,
yeah. think fly on the land first. And how, like, you know, you understand how it turns and how you can dip power if it's gusty, how you can take the power away, how you can touch it. Like, there's a lot of techniques I see people pulling on the front lines, the red lines, you know, like that.
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:39)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Felipe Rezende (1:04:54)
On the D-Wing we have a very strong leading edge, it's very hard to collapse and I find that that might not be the best solution to stash it away. To collapse it, I find it better to stall.
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:02)
Interesting.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (1:05:12)
This is the technique I've been using and I find it works really well. So I'm flying like that, I'm usually holding near the front lines. The front lines are always the red ones. Almost because then it's easier to depower. And then I point my board downwind. I took the power from the wing. It's very easy to then store. We call it store when you store the wing. So the wing loses flight. And then I go from the bottom here.
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:37)
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (1:05:41)
and then I gather all my lines and I have the wing on my hands. And I find it very reliable to kind of deploy it again like that. And I'm holding here and then I just throw up in the air. Even sometimes if kind of inflates facing the other way, it's very easy to turn to the correct way and keep on riding.
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, the power wing
wants to fly in the right direction. And I spoke with Steve Tobis this morning. He's been riding the power wings for quite a while now and was one of the first guys to start riding in, in Maui with, in September. And when I redeploy, I tend not to like throw it and like want it to go and fly exactly where I wanted to go. kind of just drop.
And he said the same thing, just drop it. And if there is a twist, it'll start untwisting itself. And then you see like the leading edge coming through and then you just, you know, you can pop it around, but instead of wanting to flow and getting that power straight away, both of us felt that just letting it drop, riding down wind, letting it undo any, you know, twists on the line, if there is anything like that helped us get, you know, much more.
Felipe Rezende (1:06:32)
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:58)
reliable redeploys.
Felipe Rezende (1:07:00)
Yeah, I think a quick glance on the lines to make sure that the red lines are pointing up. Now with the blue bit it's much easier to glance it because sometimes you packed it away and you grab the bar and it's a quick little glance. I think it's really easy if it's pointing like that, it's wrong and then you quickly correct.
Daniel Paronetto (1:07:19)
Yep.
And again, I'm sending some, some people from the power winging group on Facebook, some love now, because they're also asking what are some safety precautions that we have to have with the power wings? Like one of the guys asked, he's a kiter and there's always a, you know, the, fear of getting your fingers tangled in the lines. And like, is that a possibility that people could get hurt with this or what's the, your, your, your safety precautions with it?
Felipe Rezende (1:07:47)
Look,
I, yeah, I, just be aware of the lines, right? I think that because it's not a rigid leading edge, I think the risk of the paddle wing to have a look is just shock reinflation like a kite does when it falls out of the sky and catches it and it reinflates again. And if you're trying to kind of grab the kite lines,
Daniel Paronetto (1:07:54)
Mm.
Mm.
Felipe Rezende (1:08:16)
It's not the same with the para-wing. Once the para-wing is in the water, unless you force it to capture the air with the white leading edge, you won't reinflate. I've never had a case like that. And if you keep yourself aware, not too much tangled up on the lines, I think the risks of getting your lines twisted like that and the thing reinflating are less than on the kite.
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:27)
Yeah.
And do you, yeah. And I think that's, mean, we can't say it's never going to happen, but I think as a safety precaution, never like wrap your, your hands on the line like that. That's just common sense, but it's worth, worth mentioning. never wrap our hands to pull something. You know, if you're pulling something, I normally don't pull the lines. I'm relaunching from the water, I go to the leading edge and I grab it in my hand and let the water drain a little bit. And then I throw it up and, and, and launch it that way.
Felipe Rezende (1:08:48)
Nah, yeah.
Nah
Nah.
Yeah.
Yeah, you have to be more
careful when you're flying the three meter wings when it's 30 knots and it's bit more crazy and then I think the risks of... Yeah, I try not to manage the lines. I try to hold the bar more often. If you have a tango and the the para wing is in the water then the risk of sputaneous re-inflation are less as long as you keep the bar like that.
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:17)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (1:09:40)
Like if it's in the water and you're holding the bar at the tail end of the bar, it won't reinflate. It will. Yeah. So if you hold it here and there's a gas, that can be a case of reinflation. Yeah. You keep those two things in mind. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:46)
It's pretty sick, yeah.
And what are your views on parrowing leashes? I personally don't think it's necessary, but people sometimes feel like they need to have a leash on their parrowing. What are your views on that?
Felipe Rezende (1:10:03)
Nah.
That's
when we first started, I always went out with a leash but it only lasted me a couple of sessions and I realised that you don't need it because if you have a crash, the power wing sticks to the water. It won't get blown away by the wind, it stays there a metre away from you. There's no need for a leash.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:12)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm
It's it. Um, and look, I've experienced moments in the surf where, you know, a wave would come by and then the pair wings in the water. And that's just a factor of the condition is not that the powering sinks like a rock. But if you are riding in waves and a wave collects the power wing, it'll just be underwater, like a sheet, like a bed sheet. It's just stay there. It doesn't float back up. Does it?
Felipe Rezende (1:10:48)
Yeah.
No,
it doesn't. The bar won't sink. It's very light. It's a of air in there. It will float. So the bar won't sink.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:56)
Mmm.
Nice. Well, that's good to know that at least the bar will be visible on water because if the pairings like
Felipe Rezende (1:11:06)
Yeah, I think
if you leave it there for 10 minutes or something, maybe it will take water. But I think it will float. Yeah. We never had a bar sinking. We never had a pirouine sinking. But we never know. It can happen, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:12)
Mmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dylan from,
uh, cutting Puerto Rico, he lost a D a, a pair of wing. And I want to talk to him to see how that happened because everybody says, yeah, you could just let it go and it'll stick to the water, but he lost the pair of wing, but I'm not sure if that wasn't the surf or what happened. Um, and I'm going to clarify that and, and do a post or something. We're going to chat soon as well. So we may just talk about what happened in that incident. Cause, we don't want to be losing our pair of wings out there.
Felipe Rezende (1:11:34)
Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah.
No, no,
for sure not. I think on lighter winds, but if you're using a 5.5 and a 4.2, it's pretty safe. It's a pretty safe thing. It's actually a safety thing to have. I think the risks of getting tangled on the lines or getting your lines wrapped around the lines are very minimal.
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:54)
yeah.
Mm.
Yeah. And I, and I, when we talk about safety and we're doing downwinders and sometimes, you know, big downwinders over 20 Ks and we always try to go out with our vests and you know, our, um, our personal location beacons and all that stuff, cell phones, but having a pair of wing that is colorful, that is like the color pops, like all your pair wings have very bright colors. Was that a safety feature or was that some
Felipe Rezende (1:12:32)
Hmm.
Yeah,
that was intentional. The early prototypes we made, we used blue. And blue, if you're far away, you can't see it if you're out in the ocean. So we always wanted to use colors that are used as bright and easy to see. Red, orange, yellow. Now we're using...
Daniel Paronetto (1:12:38)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nah, that's good, Yeah.
Felipe Rezende (1:13:04)
For the new sizes we're the lime green colour which is also, pops in the ocean. Yeah. And yeah, the white lady edge with these other colour combinations I think it really makes it, it stands out. it's, if something happens, something breaks, you lose the foil. I think people will will find you easy in the middle of the ocean. In case you, if you need a rescue. But hopefully, hopefully, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. If, no, dude, think it's,
yeah, it's underestimated, but even from, from the shore, like if, um, it was very hard to spot, um, the BRMs out there just cause they're a white canvas and, um, people say, I never know where you are, but now the color coding is cool. And the other thing it's cool that people look at whoever's out there and they know what size people are riding as well, which I think is personally cool from just, you know, someone who's getting into the water. I'm like, all right, you know,
Felipe Rezende (1:13:54)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:55)
someone such and such is on a three meter cool, I know what I'm gonna be riding. So I personally like those features as well.
Felipe Rezende (1:14:01)
So I think, you know, like where we are now at this stage, we have a product that we are comfortable and the reviews are good. And we are just trying to make it better. So we are just working on prototypes. We had a prototype recently that we wanted to extend the top end of the wind range. Yeah, so we're just exploring some certain areas.
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:25)
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (1:14:30)
just to see what he leads. Just, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:34)
dude, I'm super
excited. I'm super excited. What do you think Parawinging will, how is it going to grow in 2025? What's your expectation for this year?
Felipe Rezende (1:14:40)
I think
we're just scratching the surface there. I'm keen to explore the double surface power wings as well. It would be interesting if you are already pointing that much upwind and we are having to able to go upwind attack and build downwind. I think with the double surface power wings...
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:51)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Felipe Rezende (1:15:06)
will be more efficient. Maybe that's the, it be a similar grant, you know, that the one I was talking about to get up on foil. Yeah, there might be some compromises there, it be not as easy to to stow and put it away. But yeah, that could be the thing that will challenge the status quo of wing foiling.
Daniel Paronetto (1:15:10)
Mm-hmm.
Just yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (1:15:35)
The same way,
Daniel Paronetto (1:15:36)
Yeah.
Felipe Rezende (1:15:36)
wind foiling is challenging the status quo of kite boarding, right? It's really amazing to see history repeating itself, because I've been through that process of where I was a windsurfer and I saw kite surfing come about and then stealing all the people from windsurfing.
Daniel Paronetto (1:15:44)
Yeah, it's gained so much popularity.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (1:16:01)
And now it's same thing that's happening again. You know, I see on my local beach, you know, five years ago, was full of kite surfers on the Sardinian. Now there's no more kite surfers, only wing foilers. And so last weekend on our little beach here, there was five fighter wings. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:16:13)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, they're getting popular here, man. Everybody,
like in my crew, they all were very excited and they got one and they're all having success with it and progressing and it's cool to see. And I feel you could ride a little bit closer as well when you're doing a downwind or with a parrowing. You stick together more than with the paddle. It's so much fun,
Felipe Rezende (1:16:31)
Mmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah I think that people who you know like with they are curious they wanted to explore new things those are the ones they want to try but there will be people who are happy either just kiteboarding or wing foiling and they they will stay there and that's that's normal that's you know there's nothing wrong with that but for the curious ones there's gonna be always something new for them to explore
Daniel Paronetto (1:16:56)
Yeah.
There's an option. That's awesome, man.
That's awesome. Look, Philippe, I know this has been a long chat already. Is there anything else that you feel we haven't touched that you want to bring up or we're good? Is there anything you want to talk about?
Felipe Rezende (1:17:18)
Yeah, so I see that there's a lot of racing happening, wing foiling, right? And if you see what's happening with kite-boarding races, we started off first with the tube kites, the traditional people racing those things, and you know, and now there's, now the...
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:24)
Mmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Felipe Rezende (1:17:46)
The foil kites are way more efficient and if you combine with foils they're more efficient again. You can't challenge the traditional kite surfing kind of shapes. And I think maybe that's the future for wing foiling racing is...
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
going in using apparel wing.
Felipe Rezende (1:18:08)
a double surface patterning. It's gonna be more efficient. The shape is gonna be more efficient.
Daniel Paronetto (1:18:10)
Yeah.
You think, all right. I, who was it? think it was bars that said he would, were using the, the power wing and racing guys on kites. And he was doing like 50 K and I'm like, my God.
Felipe Rezende (1:18:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think,
you know, think, yeah, well, yes, not even at this point, it's just a year, not even a year old, is it?
Daniel Paronetto (1:18:34)
Well, I think it, you know, when do you consider that it started? mean, personally for me, I'm putting a landmark when the Malika was launched, which was September, or just maybe before September, like August or something. I got mine in September and I was one of the first ones in the first batch. So I think around that time. So we're not yet maybe six, eight months in.
Felipe Rezende (1:18:43)
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah. I'd like to acknowledge my admiration for Greg, you know, having a go and creating something new. I like his approach. He has a very unique way of designing things. know, he's a shuttler's skier. He's not following the norm. He's trying something new. It's great to see I have a stronger admiration for him as a designer. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:02)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah,
dude. I think, look, everybody as well has a strong admiration for you for, for taking what's out there and trying to put your own little touch on it. And the, the, the D wing was, something that changed my power winging journey significantly. So thank you very much for, for all your. Just love for the industry love for pursuing new things, creativity, passion. that's exactly what we need. People that have an idea.
Felipe Rezende (1:19:40)
Thank you.
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:52)
have a passion and go out there and actually do it. So you're one of those guys, man.
Felipe Rezende (1:19:56)
That's
it. Keep it young. Keep it fresh.
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:59)
Nice. Thanks for the chat, Felipe.
I hope we can keep in touch, man, and maybe get you back a little bit further in the year when things will be completely different and have another chat.
Felipe Rezende (1:20:09)
Alright, thanks buddy, thanks for having me.
