Daniel Paronetto (00:11)
Balz
welcome to the Lab Rat Foiler podcast, mate I can't believe that you're even here. Thank you so much for making time, for being so candid with, you know, your energy and just saying yes. You're a yes man, aren't you?
Balz Müller (00:22)
Yeah, sure. Yeah,
mean, fun things first and talking about passion. The parrowing fraud is real. Do we talk it parrowing? I mean, we will figure out maybe during this podcast. But yeah, thanks for being here.
Daniel Paronetto (00:32)
is real.
dude, I think we're gonna, we're gonna dive deep into parowinging. We're going to be exploring
everything about parowinging. and everything that you're doing on a parowing, which is absolutely insane to watch you. And every time you come out with a video, I almost like just sit down and like, all right, what's happening now? What's coming up? So.
Balz Müller (00:57)
Well, I think
it's likewise the same when we're heading out the water and every day we're blown away by the potential. What a time to be alive, we keep saying.
Daniel Paronetto (01:08)
at the time. It's amazing, man.
Thank you. Thank you for coming on the podcast and your vote of confidence on something that you have no idea what it was, why we're doing it. But I always like to start the podcast by asking our guests to talk about their history in sports, where are they coming from and what they bring to para-winging. So tell us a little bit about your history in sports.
Balz Müller (01:13)
It's.
Well, I'm obviously coming from Switzerland, well known for its famous surf conditions. I I've been very lucky growing up in a very sporty family. My dad, used to windsurf his whole life. He used to actually start kiting very early as well. we had the opportunity to travel, not the world, but we traveled often to the oceans.
and to the two, just basically two beaches to get on the water. And likewise, guess as well here in Switzerland, people would underrate our potential for lake surfing, for lake windsurfing, for wind sports. And I'm driven by this sensation of going out there and being, I mean, the worst thing for me is sitting still here now and recording this podcast, because all I want to do is get out there and have a, yeah, have a full freaking great time.
Daniel Paronetto (02:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (02:28)
But the case is that since a young kid I was the active boy who needed to move, who needed to get out there on the lake, on the ocean, on this beautiful playground where you can create and move and do whatever you feel like. And our parents, I mean, I have two younger brothers and all three of us, we're kind of these driven forces who want to explore and who want to do...
Daniel Paronetto (02:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Balz Müller (02:56)
adventures and go out there and we obviously pushed each other ever since and the parents they didn't hold us on the short lines neither so they gave us the opportunity to go out there and they supported our ways. Although kiting was not allowed in Switzerland since my dad he dropped his kite but back in the 2000s when they were like launching 20 meter Nash Aero with a leading edge which was like this kind of big.
Daniel Paronetto (03:00)
Mm-hmm.
amazing.
Yeah.
Balz Müller (03:26)
and he had some stupid kite mares. He went into a harbour wall, he went into a tree and then obviously we were only allowed to kite but it was also ridiculous launching a kite back then on four lines without safety nothing in Switzerland. we kind of were forced to windsurf but I will not say forced because we absolutely love freestyle windsurfing. For me this is like the essence of life is creating something new and freestyling it's
Daniel Paronetto (03:29)
Yep.
Jesus.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (03:56)
Unlimited. Every day there's a new sensation. Every day there's a new move. Every day there's something to explore. And I think that leads me straight to the point where we sit at now, parowinging. It's again this amazing possibility of pioneering something that would... I mean, it's existing since a long time. People have been trying kite foiling on short lines, on bridles. People were...
Daniel Paronetto (04:07)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (04:26)
fooling around with umbrellas in the hands, we tried tents, we tried anything, but it's sort of all like the evolution kept on growing and going forward. The gear got better and now we're here and there's a new discipline, water sport discipline born and I'm so sure it's there to stay and I guess it's gonna be or it is already the clue between surf sports and wind sports because they don't like each other.
Daniel Paronetto (04:52)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (04:55)
Obviously the surfers usually they always give shit for the windsurfers and we don't talk to each other. Even the kitesurfers and the windsurfers don't talk to each other. I'm kind of different because I want to be a waterman and that's... I'm living for and from water sports and I want to become a Swiss waterman. That's my ultimate goal, which sounds awkward and weird. I'm working hard on it.
Daniel Paronetto (05:01)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
You you definitely are you I don't think you have to become
anything you already you're already there my friend we and I love what you're talking about because This is what this foil this podcast is about the the name lab rat is based on all of us being lab rats in this experiment of foiling and just saying yes to everything and being open-minded to Try new things and I think you're you're the perfect
Balz Müller (05:26)
Thank you.
Open mind.
Daniel Paronetto (05:48)
example of that, you know, from windsurfing and then the other day I saw you on the foil scooter and then the next day you're on a wing doing things that no one ever saw and just these freak tricks and everything you do has this enormous amount of energy and enormous amount of creativity. Where do you think that comes from?
Balz Müller (05:50)
Being open-minded, yeah, that's true.
Yeah
Well, I guess from the coffee since I'm growing old. No, no, no, but it's definitely my nature as well. I'm kinda the active person and just as I mentioned before, like sitting still in school, I was always looking out the window and if the trees were moving, was, mean, there was no holding me back. And yeah, just what I mentioned before, fun things first and...
And each person has their own universe, you you're living in this bubble what really fulfills you. And for me, even if it's just what you mentioned, scooter, pump foiling, I'd rather be out there on the lake in the nature than doing whatever else. And the case is, pump scooter, I mean, it's really awkward, but it's still great pleasure. And if you're not trying it out, I mean, you're missing out on something. Who knows, maybe it's...
Daniel Paronetto (07:02)
Yep.
on something.
Balz Müller (07:07)
That's indeed how it all leads to where we're sitting at now.
Daniel Paronetto (07:13)
And are these all spontaneous ideas that you just say, I'm just going to go and try this? do you like, do you, are you more analytical about this and you're like, I'm going to put this with that. And you think about it more.
Balz Müller (07:16)
You
I'm a big dreamer and I'm not the kind of guy who's if there's if there's something around I can't wait for tomorrow and and bother about how it could be perfect and rather the guy if something new comes up now in this podcast I will jump out after the podcast and straight away gonna hit the water even if it's dark you know and I have to do it instantly because you never know you never know what happens next
Daniel Paronetto (07:48)
Yeah.
And what's the process that you go through when you're trying to learn something new? You have something in your head or in your mind like, want to try this. How do you go about it?
Balz Müller (07:56)
Well, I'm... Yeah.
Well, I'm always having this saying that you first of all, there must be the wish like I I have these wishes every day and then I dream it and then I risk it and then I kind of learn it. And if you go through this process, it's a funny story, know, imagine you're standing at this stock and I've experienced it often. You have the young kid and his dad.
Daniel Paronetto (08:13)
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (08:24)
I'm kind of the guy who's teaching them how to approach pump foiling. The young kid is give me the board, I want to get out there and know what I want to do. I see the goal. And the dad is is this dangerous? How do we need to approach it? And obviously he's stepping on the board, maybe giving 40 % and the young kid is jumping on it with 140 % and the young kid will go straight away. Even though that's like the dangerous approach.
Daniel Paronetto (08:30)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (08:51)
But I kind of think sometimes in life you really have to risk something to get to a point. And I'm the kind of person who is always thinking about the security and I'm not just going head down stupid into the wall. But obviously you got to wish it, dream it, risk it and then eventually learn it. And very important learning means not only learning it for yourself,
Daniel Paronetto (09:07)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Balz Müller (09:21)
but sharing it with the community. Because in this process, if you're actually standing next to your friend, explaining to how you approach it, and he's like kind of giving you the advices in his open mind or in his mind, you're progressing. Because you're only able to learn or successful approach a maneuver 100 % if you kind of learn it one way, the other way, and then explain it to someone else, and then this person approaches it right, and then...
Daniel Paronetto (09:30)
I love that.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (09:49)
eventually you're having it. So this is like mastering something.
Daniel Paronetto (09:51)
And everything you're doing is,
yeah, and everything you're doing is so new that I think once you share it, I think your brain, it does all the connections that needs to happen. And then all of a sudden I think, and I do that when I want to try something new. I just play it in my head so many times that I'm almost already doing it before I even try it the first time. Yeah. And I think sometimes I even take too long to try it because I'm thinking about it too much.
Balz Müller (10:09)
Mm-hmm.
Indeed, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, obviously that's also good. know, if you, I'm often daydreaming. I mean, I probably went through school daydreaming and mentally surfing, surfing my way to where I'm sitting now. But I kind of guess, I'm not only guessing, I know it really helps. Mental surfing is a really important capture in progressing and learning. And that definitely helps. And now these days, social media.
Daniel Paronetto (10:29)
Ha
Did you... Yeah.
Balz Müller (10:47)
And not only
Daniel Paronetto (10:47)
Yeah.
Balz Müller (10:48)
social media, all these platforms and what you're doing, we're all doing, sharing passion, knowledge and the stock is definitely, I mean, it never been as easy to access something new as we're heading now into a new, new capture of artificial learning, guess, artificial intelligent learning, who knows.
Daniel Paronetto (11:00)
Mm.
Yeah. dude, I
feel like sometimes I want to be in the movie Matrix where you just stick that thing in your head and then like, I know Jiu-Jitsu, you know, like, because I just consume so much of what I'm obsessed by.
Balz Müller (11:14)
the mini yeah but now you're now you're yeah but now you're
now it's a vision in the far future but i guess we're much further than we're already than than we're thinking because i know that in switzerland they have this micro microchips nano chips which can already transform dots into digital letters or whatever you want to call it so we're not far from that process but the case is
Daniel Paronetto (11:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Balz Müller (11:43)
You still have to have this eager wish to approach something and make something happen. And I guess that's very, it's gonna be a very interesting future because people which have the motivation, because obviously motivation and focus, that's what's needed to face something new. And you don't need to motivate me, but I hope to motivate other people. I hope to motivate you guys out there to try something new.
Daniel Paronetto (11:48)
Mm.
Mmm.
Yeah
dude, you do.
Yeah. And I think just your energy and your openness, it is inspiring, man. It's absolutely inspiring. Do you, do you remember the first time you saw the, the power wing? Do you remember where that was?
Balz Müller (12:12)
That's my ultimate goal.
Well, I guess it was already quite a while ago, because what I've seen was like these Shinjya with these pocket wings. We should really mention the pocket wing as well. know, the guys from 5.0, they were early adapters of something which was leading a new way and definitely changed my life forever. And I guess like two and a half, three years ago,
Daniel Paronetto (12:38)
Yeah.
100%.
Balz Müller (12:58)
We have this NASA kite, so this blue little NASA whatever trainer beach kite. We used to play with that one in the dunes 25 years ago and long story short we were really shredding this thing on bridles 25 years ago as a young little five-year-old boy I was playing with it on the bridles. imagined myself as a paraglider holding this little NASA kite jumping down the dune and I was since ever attracted of kites like
Daniel Paronetto (13:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (13:28)
just
the possibility of flying anyway really attracts me, although I'm freaking scared of falling. I mean, I'm not afraid of height. I might be afraid of height, but the cases with water sports, can fall a thousand times and nothing ever happened, know, kind of weirdo, luckily touching wood. But this NASA kite really built
Daniel Paronetto (13:52)
Yeah.
Balz Müller (13:57)
built this connection to a hand-hold wing before actually the sport came apart. And guess my very first attempt on parawinging, if we're calling it parawinging, was like two years ago when I was actually holding that NASA parawing and I flew downwind certain certain meters and then it got wet and nothing happened anymore. But I
Daniel Paronetto (14:01)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. I did a similar
thing with my, my boys trainer kite at the 2.5 and I just held the bridles and I was like, there's something there. And that was when I saw the pocket wing. the pocket wing was the first one you saw and, and, and I,
Balz Müller (14:28)
Yeah, indeed, it does fly.
Indeed. I guess it was
the pocket. I guess it was Cynthia's rescue parachute. But the pocket wing, I've got the pocket wing in my hand early last season. it was already one year ago in Switzerland. The guys were already frothing about like the idea of getting up for me was so attractive. The idea of getting up on the foil.
Daniel Paronetto (14:41)
Cynthia, yeah, the parachute. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (15:03)
without actually paddling. I'm not that passionate about holding that stick all the time and paddling and it was quite a lot of effort. And for me being a wind driven water sports lover, it was a no brainer that I prefer like just holding this thing, getting up and fly, you know, and then so felt awkward. And that was the case because first of all, like
Daniel Paronetto (15:05)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Made more sense.
How did the pocket wing feel? Yeah.
Balz Müller (15:31)
having these... No, it didn't feel awkward. would not say awkward. That's the wrong... Just to me, was like straight away when I saw it, it was sure that we will face like a crazy revolution and big progress in this new sport. Because I was sure that these two handles and the kind of steering behavior of the wing and the capability of wind range and riding range was too small and very... I mean, and then
Daniel Paronetto (15:56)
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (16:00)
Obviously board writing came along and that's when it absolutely exploded and that's when literally At NC's like my friends and I we were we've got steep sleepless nights and still like until now almost 10 Since September. Yeah, the case is like we literally had like the first thing in the morning was Parawing messages and the last thing in the evening was parawing messages
Daniel Paronetto (16:06)
Yeah.
Since September last year when they launched this.
Balz Müller (16:30)
and the passion for it is enormous.
Daniel Paronetto (16:33)
Yeah. I always like
to give Greg and the guys in Maui and everyone involved with the pocket wing as well, like a huge shadow because I feel like you as well. completely changed my life and my approach to foiling. I, once I saw it, I saw the pocket wing and it wasn't quite there. Something about it didn't attract me immediately. But then when I saw the BRM, I bought it within five minutes of watching the launch video.
Balz Müller (17:03)
Yeah, that's true. That's true.
Daniel Paronetto (17:03)
And I was like, I need that. I need
that. I need that as quick as I can. What about the power wing is so unique? What drew you to it?
Balz Müller (17:13)
Well, I think it's being directly connected to your power source. the same time, mean, winging is like the most efficient direct responsive connection. But I prefer having a wing or a kite because it kind of goes with the flow in the air. And at the same time, the power source is a kind of...
Daniel Paronetto (17:33)
Yes.
Balz Müller (17:40)
unconnected so it's sort of what I what I love kitesurfing strapless freestyle I'm a freaking beginner but I love it but the cases with the kite I don't really like being always hooked in and this certain like risk of getting tracked wherever for me kiting was always more attractive like being unhooked fooling around and so obviously it all makes sense and I guess
Daniel Paronetto (17:41)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Balz Müller (18:09)
guess I would even say it's gonna be the ultimate water sport discipline parawinging. Because it combines it all for me. It combines the sailing aspect, the surfing aspect and the maneuver aspects of freestyle, windsurfing, kiting. It will eventually bring it all together I guess. It already does for me.
Daniel Paronetto (18:14)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, I,
it does for me too. Um, my background, started kite foiling and then went to winging and proning and then started sup downwinding and the parawing. can do all of that. I can surf, I can go downwinding. I can do everything I want to do on a wing and I
Balz Müller (18:42)
Mm-hmm.
and it got the
simplicity, that's the case. Like you pop it up within, I mean with the lines, obviously as a rookie, the learning process, we'll probably get into it later on. In the very beginning, it's definitely a new challenge, but that's what I liked as well about it. I'm still liking it.
Daniel Paronetto (18:54)
Yeah, look the-
Mmm, we will.
It's,
but it is, I agree with you that it is simple. When, when I think about like setting up a kite on the beach and you have to pump and you put the lines out and then, you know, like you have your harness like today with the power wing, I don't even, I don't like riding hooked in. just like to ride it as it is. So you just get that little bag. Then I always feel like I'm missing something. I'm like, what, what am I missing when I'm going out? Cause it's yeah, there's no gear.
Balz Müller (19:22)
Yeah, free ride.
The bump. The leash.
Daniel Paronetto (19:31)
It's so minimal and I love that about the pair winging. It is simple. It is simple. Let's talk about gear then.
What kind of gear do you ride when you're doing those insane back flips and freestyle maneuvers?
Balz Müller (19:45)
Yeah, that's good. mean, I might take a little round back here because when we started this whole project, my close friend Rohan, he's involved with Ensis as well. He's obviously like together we were pioneering wing foiling from the very beginning as well, especially in freestyling. So he is turning. Yeah, he's also getting older. Like we're not the youngest anymore. And then he was eventually telling me,
Daniel Paronetto (19:49)
Yep.
Balz Müller (20:13)
So sick! That's like the final destination now from now on strapless, pure freeriding, no more stupid tricks, no more no more no more nightmare handle passes whatever and then literally like I would say three or four weeks later I start doing these flips and Kai was also flipping yeah we were basically from the very beginning we already knew it I mean I was sure that the potential was there for epic freestyle maneuvers but not only freestyle like
Daniel Paronetto (20:30)
You're like...
Hmm.
Balz Müller (20:42)
whole free ride part should really be respected as well because even on a flat lake you can have shit loads of fun playing around with that parowing and even ground handling on a skateboard on the dunes so yeah getting back to your crazy freestyle maneuvers and what was the the the actually the the the goal of of creating this first parowing was meant to have something that's responsive that we can fool around with it
Daniel Paronetto (20:50)
so much.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (21:13)
And we definitely launched the Roger as early as possible. But the case was that our boss, Carl from Ensis, he had to face the problem that Michi and I been literally since probably last summer only parawinging. So he was like kind of having no product, but we've been everyday parawinging and then we kind of stressed him to get something out, which kind of turned
Daniel Paronetto (21:22)
Mm-hmm.
When do you
make that call? It's so hard. The progression would have been so, on a daily basis, everything getting better. When do you make a call to launch?
Balz Müller (21:43)
Yeah,
It's still,
indeed, it's still on a daily pace, the progression on new products. And that's obviously gonna keep going like that. It's the same in windsurfing and in kiting as well, with the only difference that there's less driven passion for it. And so then you just literally just develop for like two or three months a year. And now at the moment, we put so much energy and time.
Daniel Paronetto (22:10)
Hmm.
Balz Müller (22:14)
and passion into these new innovations that literally every evening we come up with something new. Not about the case with Roger, Carl was forced to create something. We were really lucky that Patrick, Swiss paragliding freak, was involved with us. so the case was with him that his passion for paragliding and his...
Daniel Paronetto (22:36)
That would have been awesome.
Balz Müller (22:43)
knowledge of creating a flying tool was already there. And then he also started doing at that time, he started doing and learning how to create wings. And I like how these new disciplines sort of this different sports come together and the lie together. And we were definitely really lucky having the right people at the right place and still are.
Daniel Paronetto (22:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (23:12)
And then the Roger project got started. The name actually came much later. But the case was this. we have tennis related names. So we have we have the top spin. But imagine the wife of our owner of the Ensis owner, Karen. She's she's she's fully into marketing. And for her, that's that's like it took us like two afternoons brainstorming how we could get a freaking name.
Daniel Paronetto (23:18)
Where did the name came from? Why is it Roger?
like, she fed it.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (23:41)
that's tennis related and then Roger Federer we should not put him in relation was on the table and there were many different names on the table and I guess there's gonna be also different styles of power wings so we're working a lot at the moment in different options and different directions so obviously yeah yeah so
Daniel Paronetto (24:00)
Well, let's continue on this thread with Ensys because I love to hear more about your work with Ensys. When did you start your relationship
with them?
Balz Müller (24:10)
Well, Enzies was around from the very beginning in wing foiling and the case was that Carl, used to be a distributor for Nash and for Starport. And when Nash came around with the wing surfer, he only provided a four meter. And here in Switzerland, we're obviously having completely different conditions as the guys in Hawaii. So we were launching the score, which was, I would say, a really...
Daniel Paronetto (24:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (24:39)
a really good first product for wing foiling and it was kind of like a magic product because this wing just offered all we needed for the Swiss lakes. So there was a big hype around that wing here on the Swiss lakes and the people were frothing and we were frothing and the evolution was keep going and that's how kind of this small project was born and it grew. It grew and it simply grew with the driven
with the driven factors of being passionate about sport and passionate about innovation. And the R &D team of ENCIS, I guess, is quite unique because we're here in Switzerland, obviously far from great testing surroundings, but we make something happen on the weirdest little Alp lakes. And that's kind of cool. And that project kept growing much bigger than I ever thought.
Daniel Paronetto (25:27)
Mmm.
Amazing.
Balz Müller (25:38)
and I'm stoked to be involved from the very beginning. Now we've got everything. literally got wing equipment, boards, foils. Just lately they launched their foils, are like highest, greatest standard of beautiful foil. They work fantastic, not only here on the lake, but also in the ocean. But yeah, back to the power wings of the power wing. Carl, guess he already knew that like working together with Michael and me as
Daniel Paronetto (25:49)
Awesome.
Balz Müller (26:06)
very progressive active team riders. He needed to offer something and then we came along with, we had like a school project from Patrick, our paragliding wind designer. That was literally a paraglide model as a school project on three square meters, very high aspect green kite. He took it out of his shed and then literally we took it, we...
put some bridles on and it flew and then we got the blue NASA kite next to it and that was already over a year ago like literally summer two past two summers ago and then we got these two like a very low aspect and a very high aspect kite next to each other and we managed to merge these two parawings into eventually the Roger which was a very response
Daniel Paronetto (26:58)
Was that the first
that first white and pink one was that the merge?
Balz Müller (27:03)
well the white and pink one was the merch yeah that was like the V and the guys they were so crazy that you know it took too long from the factories in china we're working with obviously to bring them over to switzerland that they start sawing their own para wings and even Rohan he got zero skills and zero experience in in uh in putting stitching something together he stitched yeah his
Daniel Paronetto (27:06)
Yeah.
Sewing in, that's so cool.
Balz Müller (27:31)
He cut his finger working in the whole process, he was one week off this world. And then he came out with his own parrowing and it kind of like I had zero expectation, but we flipped his parrowing in, I guess, in the first session. there's been so many different aspects on how we got into that process. But what definitely was the driven key was
just freaking going out on the water and having a great time and having fun with the product.
Daniel Paronetto (28:05)
So cool. When you're testing
something new like that, where do you even start? Do you just say, let's see how it goes, or do you have some key things and features in your head that you're thinking about? Like it has to go up when it has to do these things, or you're just like, let's see what it does. Yeah, it has to backflip.
Balz Müller (28:20)
It has to flip. No, I'm the
kind of guy like I'm having this huge wish list and I'm not involved with the technical part so I put this wish list which is kind of a thousand words and it has to do it all on the table and then we're sitting in the office and then Patrick obviously with his
very technical mind comes along and he's working with all these softwares, analyzing everything and putting everything through the feed and then like mostly my stupid ideas they get ruined within like two or three minutes. But that's, mean, that's also good, you know, and then Carl Loewers on the other side, he's the kind of guy who's always looking for the...
Daniel Paronetto (28:53)
Yeah.
Balz Müller (29:09)
market orientated stuff and Rohan and me, we're the kind of guys who's just looking for what flips best, you know, and then obviously it's a very creative process on how we're finalizing the needs, the demands of a new product we're creating. And so yeah, the Roger 3 came along, the Roger 3 meter, which you wrote it as well. I mean,
Daniel Paronetto (29:11)
Mm-hmm.
You
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (29:36)
I still like it in certain conditions, I think this is freaking sick project and I'll guess even in two or two years I will go back on that freaking reactive, agile, purring, but it's kinda...
Daniel Paronetto (29:49)
I think if you have
kite experience, it's not, it's, it's, it's, it's sensitive. I think it's a little challenging if you have no kiting experience and everything is new. Then it'd be. Yeah. It's nothing is impossible. It's just, you would have to be very patient to learn it and to understand it because we naturally, when I get a, a pair of wing and I've seen people who wing and people who kite.
Balz Müller (29:54)
Yeah, it's...
It's almost impossible. No, not impossible. Nothing is impossible.
Indeed. Indeed.
Daniel Paronetto (30:18)
get the parawing for the first time. Kiders understand it immediately. Within a couple of seconds they get it and then wingers or people who prone and don't have that kiting background, they take a long time to understand it. And that's the only difference.
Balz Müller (30:23)
Mm-hmm.
Indeed and the funny part the kids
the kids also they grabbed that bar and Naturally like I don't know why They they get along with it and they play perfectly with it. But yeah, definitely I mean talking now about that Roger project so the V1 was on the table literally overnight and I'm Stoked that we released it that early because I could not live any longer hiding this beautiful secret
Daniel Paronetto (30:40)
Yeah, that's all cool.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (30:58)
But when we launched it, we were already very sure that like so many different parts of it or different aspect of that product gonna be different. And we're launching this spring the different sizes. So obviously the bigger size, even just for the size, like deciding which size to go along with. Carl was very unsure about the new sport. He's still not into, he's not capable yet power winging.
Daniel Paronetto (31:12)
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (31:24)
as we're only having the three meter, that was his excuse, but now we're having the four meter, the five meter will come, we're testing seven meters, we're also testing two meters, double skin, ram air, whatever. But the case is what really mattered in the very beginning was to create a product which we're not knowing the market for yet. And so we decided to create a product that suits Michael and me perfect on our lake here in Switzerland.
Daniel Paronetto (31:29)
Yep. Seven meters. Love it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (31:54)
which is 25 to 30 knots and that's kind of the wind range this wing has, this power wing and that's the decision we've took in making that 3 meter which is now available which is really cool for certain conditions it's everywhere and it's a dream choice to arrive with that wing and then like different aspects of creating a deep power systems we thought that back then that flipping the ears in would reduce the size of the power wing
Daniel Paronetto (32:09)
It's everywhere.
Mmm... Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (32:24)
Obviously that works, but it's a really
challenging deep power system and the V2 or let's say the Roger in the bigger sizes will already be now available having simple as that just the front line deep power system so that it's way more comfortable to get started parawinging. So the 4 meter and I guess also the 5 meter which is probably the best learning sizes.
Daniel Paronetto (32:44)
Yeah.
Agree.
Balz Müller (32:50)
will
react way different from the first 3m launched rocher and it's maybe every 4 months we could probably launch a new parowing these upcoming years and I was once telling I was once telling that V6 is gonna be epic and Carl is always shooting at me but that's the hard truth you know of a new involving sport but already now
Daniel Paronetto (32:54)
Mm-hmm.
No, it's so hard, isn't it? When you guys designed the Roger, you know, go ahead, finish your thought.
Yeah, it would be challenging
to even like, because when you're designing something, the essence of designing is going to your customers, understanding their problems and solving their problems. No one has a pair winging problem right now if you don't have a pair wing. So how do you design something that you're, I think it's a good thing that you guys put it out there and just the brave, like being brave as a brand to do that and.
Balz Müller (33:26)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Indeed.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (33:45)
shifting a little bit the focus. I'm sure it came as a surprise and 2025 maybe had different plans. I don't know. But then the Parawin kind of, know, being able to shift those plans and being adaptive and reactive. I think that's the essence of a powerful brand and being nimble, working like a startup, iterating quickly. And I think...
Balz Müller (33:52)
Yeah, who knows?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You got to keep that passion as a startup. If you're waiting too long, you're missing out on something. And obviously, Carl, he rather wanted to have a whole gam, a whole range of products. And we're going to face this. I mean, who knows if we're going to see para-wing racing in the upcoming future. I see.
Daniel Paronetto (34:18)
Yeah.
100
Balz Müller (34:33)
I
Daniel Paronetto (34:33)
% we are.
Balz Müller (34:34)
see a wild future in it because already now I love racing with my friends on the PuraWing because it's very appealing. But there comes like, know, already when we took the decision that the Roger will hit now the market, we knew that probably there has to be also a lighter version, a smaller version, like a kind of maybe even a rescue pocket wing.
Daniel Paronetto (34:36)
Mm-hmm.
100 % weird.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (35:01)
And right now, all I can tell is that our brains are constantly flipping and spinning around just to provide the best possible fun toy of a new sport. We're not even knowing the market yet. And I mean, it's...
Daniel Paronetto (35:15)
Do you think that we
will have these different, like we'll have maybe three, four different models. Like if you're a down winder guy, you'll use this one. If you like freestyle, you use a different one or not really, you think they'll congregate.
Balz Müller (35:29)
Well,
you know, now we're talking of the niche in the niche and I always keep saying if the niche is so small, it has to be an even bigger niche product to be appealing for the freaks which are kind of in this niche. So personally, I prefer having 10 models and for each individual wish and goal the perfect toy and
Daniel Paronetto (35:35)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Balz Müller (35:56)
I know from a marketing side, I guess it's easier to have just the perfect crossover one does it all parowing and it's kind of possible. mean, the board riding Maui is a great example. You have fun on that thing. The Rogers V2, the 4Meter, I can literally do everything with it now. I could probably even go racing, but then if we're going into more specific products, I'm sure, I mean,
Daniel Paronetto (36:02)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (36:21)
at least two different models gonna be on the table in the upcoming futures. And I cannot tell the number of Parawingers already existing by now, but what I can tell each one I individually met or know about is freaking frauded about. it will not... Indeed. But so for me, one thing is clear. There's a...
Daniel Paronetto (36:39)
my God, the worst frothers in the world. They won't shut up. I can't stop talking about it.
Balz Müller (36:50)
there's a bright future for this very appealing new product.
Daniel Paronetto (36:53)
Yeah, I think everybody who's riding the parowing now, they are quickly becoming very vocal ambassadors. Yeah, they, and because it allows us to do things that we're not able to do. For me, the parowinging was attractive to start down-winding. And now I see what you're doing. like, Ooh, maybe, you know, doing, you know, a backside three, a stylish, you know, something like that would be amazing. The railies that you're doing now, like how
Balz Müller (36:59)
Addicted, it's a bad drug.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, even just the railings.
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (37:23)
I mean,
it's just so like, then I'm, so to go back to what I wanted out of the parrowing, was really involved in downwinding and that's all I wanted to do. But obviously when you're downwinding, you have a big board, right? So downscaling the board and doing a prone downwinder was the ultimate goal for me, but I'm not that good. I'm not gonna be able to do a prone downwinder, but I can with the parrowing very easily.
Balz Müller (37:38)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
That's the case and I can finally call myself a lake surfer without fooling myself because we're obviously now on mid-lengths shredding these knee to hip high waves and the guys, I mean just past weekend there were like 20 power wing frotters out on the lake having a great time in central Europe in a landlocked country that obviously has a lot of surfers but I mean there's
Daniel Paronetto (38:01)
Yeah.
That's so cool.
Balz Müller (38:21)
There's one artificial wave here in Switzerland and a few river waves, that's it. But we literally have a beautiful slope that just allows you to catch swell and free ride down the lake.
Daniel Paronetto (38:38)
Do you do a lot of downwinding?
Balz Müller (38:41)
Since I started para-winging, I'm doing now, my downwind behavior changed a lot. For me, para-winging was... I love it. It's absolutely flow stage going with... I mean, it's an adventure as well. It's like ski touring. You go, you take your time. But the case was as a young family father and with my kind of freestyle aspect of things, I was so limited going only like half an hour downwind and then...
Daniel Paronetto (38:54)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Balz Müller (39:09)
sacrificing a whole afternoon, you know, and now what I'm doing now is literally I combine it all. I combine the greatest aspects, well, the greatest aspects of downwind. I combine riding swell on the lake, cruising upwind, doing like these short waves, sort of more like short boarding. I kind of attack the wave to the fullest and then turn back upwind and while riding upwind, I kind of look around, I sail, I cruise.
Daniel Paronetto (39:11)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Balz Müller (39:37)
And I started fooling around on the maneuvers, the tacks, on the chipes. And then obviously it didn't took long and I started implementing freestyle maneuvers in downwinding. We saw Kaileni and the guys in Hawaii doing it in prime conditions. But in Switzerland, mean, if you're falling on a lake downwind, it always takes you 10 minutes to get up and going again. And now with the parawing, it's just, clack, you're back up.
Daniel Paronetto (39:52)
Yeah, Jesus. Yeah.
Yeah,
that was a game changer for me. I, when I was down-winding, my mindset was I want to ace the run. I want to go from A to B and not fall. Now I do a down-winder from A to B and I want to fall as many times as I can because it getting up is not an issue. I know if I paddle up 10 times, I'm going to be tired. Maybe the 11th, I might struggle. And if I'm on a small foil, you, you, kind of.
Balz Müller (40:13)
This is it. This is it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Good.
Daniel Paronetto (40:30)
play it little bit conservatively with the power wing, I don't care. so much more. It's changed the mindset. And now like you, I'm not even doing the shuttle and the downwinders and all that stuff. I go out to the best part of the downwinder in the Bay that we ride and I just hit that spot a hundred times, you know, and get the best part of the downwinder. Yeah.
Balz Müller (40:31)
Yeah, but you risk more. Yeah, you risk more.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, even more. Yeah.
And then you rest again, go upwind. I kind of ride more hooked in with the harness, but obviously with the Roger V1, I was also kind of forced to use the wing always on the brakes. So I was placing my harness lines that the Roger is always like facing in the wind and being in solid powered up. And I was doing great angles.
Daniel Paronetto (41:06)
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (41:18)
And I'm still, know, it's all, everything's in a compromise and everyone wants this Formula One car with four wheel drive, which is the impossible mission. But what I realized with the Roger as he's kind of more high aspect and if you're an advanced rider knowing how to use it, I'm getting up went so easy with that thing being hooked in and loaded up, but it's quite scary being hooked in on a short part on a...
Daniel Paronetto (41:36)
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (41:45)
on short harness lines on a para wing in like 30 knots fully stacked and you always get to be under under pressure you know like going up and on the foil it's it's not yet easy but it's also not that challenging and i'm sure we will the foil yeah look it feels intense and the case is the evolution of the gear the evolution of the foils like
Daniel Paronetto (41:53)
Yeah.
Yeah, you just have to lock in that power and once you're locked, but it just feels intense, right? It just feels intense. Yeah.
Balz Müller (42:12)
these higher aspect first that get easy to ride and that actually become very comfortable. can blind, I mean you can breach blind now. Everything's progressing and I'm also sure like the D-Power systems on the perrowing they will evolve and we're testing so much different stuff and even just like different bar modifications. That's actually a kind of thing. I love skateboarding and changing little pieces can
Daniel Paronetto (42:18)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (42:42)
can do enormous changes. And having this possibility of even just like notting some different bars to it is a great thing and a great feature and we will see more of it in the future. And I guess it's a very comfortable bar. And we, that's the kind of thing like when I wrote the board writing Maui first time I was shocked by.
Daniel Paronetto (42:45)
Yeah.
I love the bar of the Roger.
Balz Müller (43:10)
I mean, it's a great product, an awesome idea, but I was shocked about the connection between the power source and my hand. And I was like, yeah, with the webbing, and I was like, this can be better. it's smart. Yeah, smart and well engineered and simple. But now, mean, we're facing now three or four pair wings on the market, and there will be
Daniel Paronetto (43:17)
with the webbing. Yeah. It looks fragile, but it's so much better than it is. Like it looks like it's gonna come out. Yeah.
Yeah.
Balz Müller (43:38)
shitloads. No, but there will be, I see at least 20 parawings in the pipeline or getting launched this spring. So we're gonna have a huge variation of different aspects of parawinging and it will be for the end client, for you out there. It will be a great time to get started with this sport because you will get this flipping freaking Roger that flips you through the sky or even just through maneuvers.
Daniel Paronetto (43:39)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (44:07)
which
is probably 2 % of the foiling foilers in the world. But it will get an interesting discipline and the development is going wild. Not only on the board side, on the wing side.
Daniel Paronetto (44:10)
2 %
Mmm.
Yeah, we'll get to boards. want to talk about boards.
And I actually, in my head, I'm putting these stats out there and I want to see if by the end of 2025, this becomes real. I actually think that...
Balz Müller (44:41)
I can show you one thing, you know, I'm having my logbook. Actually, that's a great thing for everyone out there who's approaching water sport and who wants to become better. I'm doing it digital, but I'm not the kind of Strava bitch who loves to like do the case every day. So I kind of take the notes and then I have these little icons and past month the big turnover happened that I've been winging less than power winging.
And I mean, it's still, I was in January, I was winging 16 days and I was winging 10 days and para-winging 16 days. And then obviously I was also windsurfing and everything. then in February as well, I was para-winging much more than I was winging. And this is kinda like it happened already now, which I thought would never be possible because I love winging. mean, winging is beautiful.
Daniel Paronetto (45:34)
Mmm.
Balz Müller (45:37)
But I love even more the variation of all these disciplines. I could not choose a favorite one, know, it's impossible. No, it all adds up. Even paddling.
Daniel Paronetto (45:43)
It's, uh, and I don't think we have to, I don't think we have to, I like to go out and do whatever, yeah, whatever's best on the day. What is,
what's the best thing to do in these conditions that we have today? And then that's how I see it. And then I go out and do it. And I think when we talk about, um, the development and who's going to be, um, riding the pair of wings, the winging market, which is enormous. That is the people.
Balz Müller (45:55)
Mm-hmm.
Indeed.
Still growing.
Daniel Paronetto (46:11)
I think those are the people that will come on to power winging very quickly. And my prediction is that by the end of 2025, 20% to 30% of wingers will own at least one parawing And I think that number will probably double the, the in 2026.
Balz Müller (46:15)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, for sure. And even though
I guess, with a beginner wingboard or with a big wingboard, you can approach the first power wing attempt on a flat lake. And this is changing a whole new horizon. And then back to the story of my dad. Simply stricken kitesurfing for us kids on the lake here in Switzerland.
Daniel Paronetto (46:39)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (46:52)
We have ridiculous conditions. It's freaking gusty here on the lake. Kiting, usually, I mean, launching, you can launch alone, but it's freaking scary. And kite falling, I swam last year. I've only had like four kite falling sessions last year. That was literally nothing anymore. And I swam four times. I mean, it's connected with swimming all the time here in Switzerland. And having this liberty, this freedom of just launching this thing, swimming no matter what.
Daniel Paronetto (47:01)
Yeah.
Yep.
Balz Müller (47:22)
will attract also kite surfers and I've tried this new F1 project which is not yet released I think it's their approach of I've had a great conversation with Julien it's their approach of yeah me neither not yet until I mean still not but when I tried it all made kind of sense it was a cool free flying sensation and it was literally going up when it's a it's a
Daniel Paronetto (47:25)
Mm-hmm.
What is that?
I didn't understand it.
So for the people that don't know what it is, explain to us what we're talking about here.
Balz Müller (47:52)
It's a strut-less little foil kite on short lines, inflatable. But like very well engineered. I'm curious to see, in certain conditions I could see, I was actually that night when I tried it, I was having two red faces in front of me back again at NC's because I wanted one. was like, we need this.
Daniel Paronetto (47:56)
inflatable.
Do you think that that could be
the freestyle version of pair winging? Would it?
Balz Müller (48:18)
I think
it's more going to be the crossover between winging and parowinging at the side shore surf way. No, actually I don't know. All I guess is that the F1 has to bring out a parowing as well. That's the case. When I rode it, went upwind very smooth, so you got no power tension, but it was very efficiently placing in the wind. It was quite awkward to get going. But then I...
Daniel Paronetto (48:34)
How does it ride? How does it feel when you're actually riding? Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, in the wind window, it would go,
yeah.
Balz Müller (48:48)
Yeah, then
I was kept telling me a smart, innovative, great power wing will also face this wind window and will also bring us upwind that easy and quickly. I guess it's a great approach and I love innovators and I love these crazy stupid ideas because I mean the power wing used to be the same. Yeah, me as well.
Daniel Paronetto (48:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It got me by surprise. It got me by surprise because
they were like, it's taking away the best feature of the Paralleling, which is getting rid of it. But.
Balz Müller (49:14)
of the power wing, yeah indeed.
who knows, yeah you gotta ride it. No but so I'm now power winging more than I'm winging and where it goes who knows but it's definitely great.
Daniel Paronetto (49:20)
You gotta write it. Yeah.
Yeah, look,
I think for the wingers out there and for the wingers who've always like looked at the downwinding scene and maybe just considered it and said, no, I don't want to learn how to paddle. I don't want to buy a new board. I don't want to buy a pad, a big board. Yeah. Yeah, it's huge.
Balz Müller (49:46)
A big board, know, 8'6 or whatever, that's huge. Doesn't fit
in the back. And for me, with windsurf gear is a nightmare. Traveling with wing gear also sucks. A few weeks ago, I on the Canary and we had like 10 or maybe even more pair of wings with us and the board back was...
Daniel Paronetto (49:59)
Oof.
Balz Müller (50:10)
freaking light, was nothing in it, like these little things and we were testing, I was literally testing with three power wings on me, which was a stupid idea because I mean, when they get wet, you got so much on you and it takes so long to actually undo one and the other on the water that you probably be quicker, but I wanted to feel like back to back. we were testing that we crossed over which was smarter in the end, but no, but it's a smart, cool tool.
Daniel Paronetto (50:10)
Nothing. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
if it's...
Yep.
Yep. Mmm.
Balz Müller (50:39)
and it's very appealing. back to low kiting, because we're not calling it low kiting in this conversation. I know that Patrice from Gong is fully into low kiting and low kiting, I think that could be really big. Not that I'm sure that it will become a low kiting thing like kiteboarding because it's still foiling and foiling is relatively complicated compared to twin tip kiting, but it's appealing to people.
Daniel Paronetto (50:43)
Yes.
Yeah.
Mm.
Explain to us what the low kite
is. Not everybody might know what the low kite is.
Balz Müller (51:11)
well if there's a difference between a parawing and a low kite I guess it's the length of the lines the low kite has the ones I've seen live from gong they were maybe half a meter longer but as well they're calling the whole range like that and they have four different models already so the ones I've seen they were literally like maybe on three meter bridles and we're on one and a half one to two meter so
Daniel Paronetto (51:16)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (51:40)
I wouldn't say there's a difference in the style of the power wing or low kite, but as well then, mean, the final name is not yet written in stone. I mean, it could be some people like D-wing, the downwind wing, expecting it from like flow, their aspect is going with the flow downwinding, but kind of that also doesn't match anymore what we capable doing with it.
Daniel Paronetto (51:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yep.
Balz Müller (52:08)
So
string winging will also not be the one, pocket wing neither and power wing is kinda awkward but we will get along with it I guess.
Daniel Paronetto (52:16)
Yeah, I,
I, I, we did a conversion with a friend of mine. he didn't want to buy one. So we got a peak the fly surfer and we, we did, yeah, we did a conversion and then it works. It works. And we kept the lines a little longer. So more like a low kite. And I feel that the longer.
Balz Müller (52:24)
Mm-hmm. It probably worked.
Going upwind
was fun.
Daniel Paronetto (52:35)
It was so easy and it feels more like
a kite. It steers a little bit more like a kite. Like it has that little bit of a lag. So it kind of feels like you have lines. Like the power wing is very immediate, very, you know, right there. and I think for people that are just cruising around, you know, if you're someone who, know, are learning, yeah, like you're a winger and you like just to go out and, you know, sail, you're a sailor. I think something like that, maybe even with a double skin would be very nice.
Balz Müller (52:40)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
or learning even.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's like autopilot. Yeah, with the peak, as I've seen the peak also in the water, I know you got to extend the lines a little bit because otherwise you're literally like forcing this leading edge squeeze together, but it works surprisingly well.
Daniel Paronetto (53:05)
And then you just, you're back to a Ram kite though, aren't you?
Well.
We went,
we went all in and we cut it. We removed some panels and, now, um, I can, I'll send you a photo of it. Um, it's this little square and it's a one. Yeah. It's like a one super low aspect. It's like a 1.8, maybe two max and the thing packs so well. Yeah. And I'm like, man, this could be the ultimate down winding in 25 knot plus.
Balz Müller (53:24)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Sick. Low respect.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sick ass!
Daniel Paronetto (53:50)
that I can just stash in literally your pocket like it's tiny. Yeah.
Balz Müller (53:50)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you got nothing on.
I'm curious to see we were last weekend we had 40 to 50, five knots. It was ridiculous. I was windsurfing on my smallest sail tree tree and it was kind of a joke because Michael he was riding like super comfortable but it was like the wind just started increasing so it was like 30 to 40 then it got 35 to 45.
And he was doing flips, one handed, freaking board grabs everything, 720 spins, nightmare crashes. And I was windsurfing, was like, fuck. And I got so jealous, know, fear of missing out. And then I was literally going to the beach, grabbed my power wing as well. We got some two meters to test. I went out there and it increased from 30 to maybe 35 average, gusting 45 and then.
Daniel Paronetto (54:30)
Yep.
amazing.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (54:44)
As soon as hit the water, there was flying water passing, so like 55-50 knots and I could do nothing anymore. I literally went out and the parawing went from one side to the other. I was foiling without actually going for it and I had to the walk of shame. Then Michael obviously stopped and he was like, I think it's too much and then I said, go with the harness. I hooked in.
Daniel Paronetto (54:57)
Just crazy.
Balz Müller (55:12)
I was literally hooked in and then I went from one side to the other and I guess I reached the max of what's possible in general in power winging because even if we would go on a one meter it would be such a small nervous toy that would go from one to the other side but then Michael did the downwinder he went straight downwind it was the easiest thing ever and for me what I realized it was easier to actually flip and do jumps than ride along and
Daniel Paronetto (55:12)
my god.
Yeah.
Then it doesn't
Balz Müller (55:40)
stay upwind you know at least like catch wind no no but i did two walk of shames and now the ultimate goal from our designers to create me a storm purring that that gets me back to to my starting point in 50 knots you know but we're we're still
Daniel Paronetto (55:41)
Well, for some bells, for some.
Jesus those conditions are
insane man. I think the strongest I've been out on and I was on a 4.2 was 35 knots and that thing It was scarier. I just had to sit down put it down and just wait for like the conditions to come down a bit and eventually I actually It was a downwind and I had my last exit point before another eight kilometers of just hills So I just left and yeah, I'm glad I took that decision
Balz Müller (56:07)
Good
Beautiful.
And
then it goes literally spreading the shoulders and you go with the flow with the wind.
Daniel Paronetto (56:33)
Continue
to talk about gear a little bit, because I think I love understanding how you guys are designing things and what improvements do you think, like everything can improve, but what are the biggest improvements that you believe we can still have on the parawings?
Balz Müller (56:36)
That's
Mm-hmm.
Well on the Parawing, what definitely is a game changer now is the stability, the depower system on the front lines, because that makes it easier for the beginner to hold the Parawing and just like as soon as the stronger gust hits, literally at 12 o'clock the Parawing stays calm, which allows you to get up on your board easier and obviously you get this delay then in reaction in the jibes and in the tacks and everything.
Daniel Paronetto (57:05)
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (57:18)
but someone who's approaching it or just going downwind doesn't really look for this reactive maneuverability. So this is definitely a huge progress. And then the Tangled Nightmares reducing lines is like the magic, the magic key. I keep telling, come on, just put four lines on it, like a kite. And you know, in my simple brain, this works out and we're reducing lines like crazy, but like...
Daniel Paronetto (57:31)
Yeah.
Yeah
I like that.
Balz Müller (57:45)
the
system and the simulations, they're popping errors non-stop. But that's obviously the way to go. And then bar configurations, like depower systems in any certain ways. What was very important and still is very important for Carl, he wants this safety aspect with the safety leash. And we had this little red ball on it to grab and like...
Daniel Paronetto (57:49)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (58:11)
Or even just like put the safety leash on and I'm never ever using a leash parowinging. It flies maybe 20 meter and the case is I would be scared falling and then being on that thing and like whatever happens. I don't know. But the case is our designer, he's rather the free rider on the parowing. So he's cruising on the flat leg and he tells me if he's always hooked in with the leash and the safety kinda, he gets no tangles because everything is connected to his body.
Daniel Paronetto (58:16)
Yeah, I don't use it either.
Yep.
Mm.
Balz Müller (58:41)
So he's
kind of kite surfing the Paro Wing. But me as a surfer, freestyler, I want to play around. I want to like pass wherever I want or wish to. So definitely different aspects on how we're developing and testing. yeah, I guess it leads to different models. But so far, like V2 launching this spring will be a very forgiving Paro Wing.
Daniel Paronetto (58:43)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes.
Balz Müller (59:11)
And as I mentioned before, we only started doing one size. We focused on only one size to just make it capable of releasing something. But now obviously the bigger size is coming. There will be some explanation to the world from our marketing side because obviously V2 is going to be completely different than V1, even though guess in feel,
Daniel Paronetto (59:21)
Mm-hmm.
In what regard? What... what it... what...
Balz Müller (59:40)
because it's obviously more forgiving but less reactive but also the pull is different like it has more like we got to pull less on the brakes so I got less bar force kind of like less grindy downforce but a much more forgiving sensation on getting up on the foil so that was the goal on it and it still is
Daniel Paronetto (59:42)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
What can we do to make the wind range better?
Balz Müller (1:00:11)
We experiment with Ram-Air hybrids, the new Dua Dona which will be released soon. It's gonna be a cool release I guess from what I've seen before. I was actually having great time together with the marketing guy who's in charge for actually putting the text together. He's not into power winging yet, but he was always asking me coming up with...
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:18)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Yeah.
Balz Müller (1:00:38)
with great conversations what's needed and how we're gonna call it or whatever and I guess they have this hybrid which has like the element as well which is actually also designed in Switzerland the element is designed by the Ex-Chin, no, he's not the Ex-Chin kind of designer but by Hosey and he has this hybrid as well which has some some Rammer struts the red one so he has yeah indeed
Daniel Paronetto (1:00:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's cool.
The pulleys? the struts. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Balz Müller (1:01:07)
two little struts which is 1.2 or whatever kilo water 1.5 kilo water inside so if you're if you're if you're not rinsing it right it's it's a nightmare to fly but what I feel with these Rummer struts or these hybrid power wings that the response on the pumping is much better but you can you can succeed the same with a smart profile and I guess what we
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:12)
Mmm.
Nice.
Mmm.
Balz Müller (1:01:33)
we're seeing now with our V2 and also the D-Wing which is also a great it's a really great wing as well i guess the new new Nour is going to be similar as well is a very forgiving profile on pull and release because to get going yeah i mean probably we have to do another podcast about techniques but to get going parawinging if you want to be on attractive small gear you got to
Daniel Paronetto (1:01:39)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah, you can actually pump them.
Balz Müller (1:02:02)
create a great technique to get going. the low end or the forgiveness of forgiveness of pumping is very important so that you got the parawing that you can release, pull towards you and kind of do these circles. And on the latest power wings I'm testing, I literally pull as hard as I can and it's just there. And I don't really want to deep into Ramair double skin kites.
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:04)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nice.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (1:02:31)
It's a nightmare packing them. Michael he almost drowned with the 7m the other day. They're dangerous. He didn't want to lose it. He was fishing. What I see coming is probably hybrids. Who knows.
Daniel Paronetto (1:02:33)
It is, there's... dude, they're actually, they can be pretty dangerous because they, yeah, they... Well, yeah, well they get so much water.
Yeah.
So you were talking a little bit about that technique of getting up. Let's move into techniques. I love to talk about techniques. Explain to us for a beginner, like what's the best approach and technique to get up on a parrowing?
Balz Müller (1:02:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
well, there's two approaches. If you're the downwinder, it's going to be simple. Take your downwind board and the biggest front one you have, maybe not the best appealing downwind, and then just go with the flow. Get on the board and getting on the board, put your back knee still on the board, get up on your front foot, be in a stable position, and then get the parrowing kind of up and then like just drag downwind and you will eventually get up. And if you're capable of panel downwinding, you'll learn it.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (1:03:38)
the first go. mean I've seen most guys getting up and they were like packing the stuff away. They were struggling packing it away but they got up on the foil and they were were gone, acing the downwind run. But if you're approaching it from the wing side, can't it's gonna be still unsure. We're working on a kind of tutorial as well for approaching power winging.
Daniel Paronetto (1:03:48)
Yep.
Nice.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (1:04:06)
from a wing foiler stage and I'm still not so sure what's going to be the gear choice makes it all I guess spot and gear choice going on a simple flat day enough wind more wind is kind of easier because you can rely on the power of the para wing but then on the rocher it has to be so precise on the v1 three meter it has to be in these five knots of range the
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:09)
Mm-hmm.
100%.
the range, yeah.
Balz Müller (1:04:34)
The range is minimal at the moment, it will extend enormously with especially already with the V2, the 4m, you have a much bigger range. But the case is you have to choose the right conditions, the right gear. And I keep telling like big foils are lame. That's true. But on a big foil, getting up is so easy. And I can get up parawinging in three knots if I'm having a pump foil and a downwind board. And it's so easy to train steering the parawing or like
Daniel Paronetto (1:04:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Balz Müller (1:05:03)
using the parawing fully underpowered because everything is slower and kind of easier. But to approach it from a wingfoiler experience to wingfoiler side, you can take your big wingfoil board, a slightly bigger foil as you would use normally, step in both your straps, I mean, in your front step knee on the board and then get the parawing up and you will get up foiling. And then obviously you got to learn to steer that parawing. But again,
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:28)
Yeah.
Balz Müller (1:05:32)
Don't go on the water expecting you will learn it within 2-3 seconds. Rather like play with it on the beach, on the skateboard, on the snowboard. That's so important. And... Ah, for sure! I mean, you learn the... I've learned the type, the tack, 360, everything on the skateboard. Because you get so many more... I mean, it's so easier to get multiple attempts. And obviously, I mean, learning ground handling, that thing is so important. So that's the approach.
Daniel Paronetto (1:05:40)
I think that's really important. Yeah. If you have a skateboard and you can do that too, that's awesome.
What are
the biggest mistakes that you see people do when they're first starting out?
Balz Müller (1:06:07)
Well, guess launching the power wing is the first thing, like they get tangled in the lines. Which like the legs, obviously when you're sitting on your board and you draw your power wing in front of you, you get the lines around your legs, that happens. what's the easiest way is keeping it in the air and get to the water and don't get it wet. That would be the dream. But I think most of the people they approach it with
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:10)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Balz Müller (1:06:35)
too much expectation and with the wrong conditions, especially here in Switzerland.
Daniel Paronetto (1:06:40)
Yeah, conditions are key, hey? mean, conditions,
like you said, the wind range is so small that, I mean, five knots up or down, yeah.
Balz Müller (1:06:46)
Underpowered you will you can
yeah, especially the upside you kind of can find the solution if you're like this bulldog who wants it but Being being underpowered is it's it's it's the worst and then I'm you know, I'm capable flat starting a thousand five hundred front wing Just without nothing just with the bouncing So this kind of helps, you know that gets me going in three knots
Daniel Paronetto (1:07:00)
worst.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (1:07:16)
and then I can fly. But if you're not able of doing these very efficient pump starts, and then further I got to add like most of the people I know approaching para-winging coming from down-winding with the long rails, they have like eight foot boards and eight foot inside chop is a nightmare to just to simply stand on the board. So from the moment I got down to five, 10, six holes or whatever, life got so much easier. And I think that's
Daniel Paronetto (1:07:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a great
board size that that range there from five, five to six. So, yeah, it's awesome.
Balz Müller (1:07:50)
yeah indeed,
but telling this now, know, that's a funny story as well, the guy in the shop here, he was like, so you know, in the afternoon I was explaining this guy, should get like a mid-length for going parrowing and then in the evening I saw your post using your 4-3 wingboard, I was like, yeah, it worked great! so, no, yeah, that's like a 57-liter board, but there comes
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:10)
That's not for everyone though. What size board was that?
Balz Müller (1:08:17)
Another very important advice on the foils, I'd be a bit over foiled than under foiled to get going. that's the case, know, obviously these new efficient foils, they get up so easy and they handle also in bigger sizes, they handle a lot of speed. But that's the approach to learn it.
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:24)
100%.
Love it. Now, if people are already going and riding and staying upwind, you're the perfect person to ask this. How do you jump on the Parawing?
Balz Müller (1:08:51)
well just take that power wing put it a little bit on the brake push it up and you're off you go strapless then you got to kind of like I was doing I'm doing strapless frontside like backside and frontside backside 360 strapless is actually fun it's like strapless kiting I hold the bar like inverted and then I untangle I unspin it
Daniel Paronetto (1:08:58)
Strapless.
oof do you hold the bar or you're
Yeah.
Balz Müller (1:09:13)
You know, we're doing these in Parawing and we're calling it the Palau, which is like pre-roll the shoulder and unroll it. But you can't kite loop it indeed. And even for the tacks, but what I realized, like in everything, it has to feel comfortable and smooth. And when it feels like in slow motion, that's when everything's right. And on the tacks in the very beginning, we were doing like kind of weird movements. Now we're really stepping it down to just...
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:19)
Yeah, I do as well. The like a little kite loop kind of thing where you just, yeah.
Mmm.
Balz Müller (1:09:43)
as simple as possible and that really helps.
Daniel Paronetto (1:09:46)
So you're not looping the the Parawing anymore on the tacks you just kind of go from one side to the other? Yeah.
Balz Müller (1:09:48)
I just place it over my head.
But I change the hands very quickly so that I kind of unload the weight on the foil, change the hands and then pull again and then like kite, very similar to kite tacks. Not actually turning inward yet, but that will come as well at least once we're starting racing on the 500s. I was using race foils already.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it helps having that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Balz Müller (1:10:18)
I was going fast on the power I was sprinting the other guy who was on the race equipment I was actually wondering if we faster because he was on a very, like not a 580 something phantom whatever, it was a fast foil but I was like sprinting him from the back rolling him over yeah no, rather 55 or something, 50 so it's going towards 30 knots on the power wing already
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:33)
Yeah.
Wow, you're definitely doing over 40Ks there. Yeah.
Cool.
Balz Müller (1:10:48)
and I'm sure someone can hit dirty notes easy.
Daniel Paronetto (1:10:50)
Can you also explain to us how to do a backflip? People are asking,
Balz Müller (1:10:55)
sure sure
and don't make it too complicated because if you're able to do a backflip in prone foiling in wing foiling you'll get the first attempt and the great point of parawinging backflip is you're not destroying 10 leading edge attempting the trick i went head first into the parawing it was into this jellyfish so like head first swimming in the lines maybe approaching safety as well soon but the case was
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:13)
Yeah.
Yep.
Balz Müller (1:11:25)
It's not that hard and I got it literally on the first attempt. Someone who's already doing backflips on the wing will not face any problems and someone approaching it from a new side, the foil is the freaking trampoline. A foil is meant to boost you out of the air like nothing else. You probably know about back rolls in kite foiling, it's like the easiest thing.
Daniel Paronetto (1:11:49)
Mm.
I was gonna say, it
feel like a back roll, the movement? Yeah. Because there's two types of back flips that I've seen you guys do. The back flip where you loop and it, the inverted and then the.
Balz Müller (1:11:56)
Very similar. Very similar.
inverted yeah and then just the
one the freaking kite is just up in the air floating and also pulling and we're not yet we're facing now that we're getting the height first and then doing the maneuvers but so far what we have done is literally just use the foil for the momentum of the rotations but as soon as as products progress and probably also rider skills we will get up first and then do the tricks
Daniel Paronetto (1:12:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay.
Mmm.
Balz Müller (1:12:33)
But will
always be way more challenging than kite foiling, I guess, because you got to imagine we're not having this constant pull and this smooth floating thing above our head. It will always be this reactive jellyfish, which makes it such a unique challenge.
Daniel Paronetto (1:12:42)
Yeah.
So you find it easier to send the backflip once you're a little bit inverted, then you try the loop on the kite and that kind of finishes the rotation.
Balz Müller (1:12:59)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, that pulls it through.
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:04)
How do you land and ride with speed? That's my biggest gripe when we land and we just have to pump or just almost do a water start again. I feel like you're not completing the trick. I want to ride out.
Balz Müller (1:13:08)
Yeah.
It's, yeah, I guess, no, it
needs to be smooth out on the foil, I guess that's the ultimate goal. And it all matters actually like in get going, placing the leading edge right. And it has to be on the break before the landing on pull downwards and then boosting into the wind. And it's not boosting to 12, I guess, but you know, I think it's going to be a lot of...
Daniel Paronetto (1:13:20)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Nice. Of course, it...
Balz Müller (1:13:41)
of handling skills involved. So I hope it's not going to be the niche in the niche, but I can tell one thing. The first ever wing, parowing flip has been done by a young kid who's very famous for freestyle winging and he's not allowed to to show it because he was riding the parowings from his dad and his brand has no parowing yet, but he was freaking flipping first attempt. And if these kids get their fun toys together.
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:06)
I
Balz Müller (1:14:10)
We're gonna see the double backflip just as expected from everyone. But double is nothing, quadruple is what we're talking about these days. No, but that goes far from what it's all about with parowing. I mean, for me parowinging, it's still the pure free ride sensation of just surfing hands free. the white...
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:16)
Yeah, it's...
god, god. Anyway-
True.
What tricks are you working on? Speaking of the free ride and just the essence
of it.
Balz Müller (1:14:39)
what i really like at the moment is all these swing types and tacks so literally we i'm looping this small power wing above my head behind my shoulders under my board feels like swimming swinging around a lasso and uh that kind of and then like doing the carving 360 having the power wing like around the world behind you but always on pressure because you put you
Daniel Paronetto (1:14:42)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (1:15:04)
pulling the brakes and then the power wing shoots backwards and it's on tension with the lines and then you're literally carving around the 360 and I started doing this in the waves. Powered, powered, yes well and then powered power winging, powered power winging in the waves can be actually also kind of fun like especially toe side like smacking some some lips sort of kite, kite wave riding as well. So yeah we're just scratching the
Daniel Paronetto (1:15:14)
In the- getting into a wave. Nice.
Absolutely.
did so
Balz Müller (1:15:35)
spectrum
I guess. There's a new dimension, new lines.
Daniel Paronetto (1:15:40)
Yeah. Yeah. my God. I want to go parowinging right now. Before we've finished this, we do need to talk about safety. and, and I think that people coming into this sport, because you can go out offshore and go pretty deep into the ocean. you know, you can get yourself in pretty bad situations very quickly. so what are your, you know, some tips or some safety considerations for people that are parowinging?
Balz Müller (1:15:43)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (1:16:08)
in the down-winding or even just freestyling or whatever they want to do.
Balz Müller (1:16:11)
Well, first thing that's kind of very important is a board leash because that's your ultimate last chance, I guess. without a cord, I just wanted to mention we've tried that before and then literally we were like all tangled up with the lines. But Michael, he almost drowned the first day parawinging here on the lake because he got no board leash and then he kind of he got up.
Daniel Paronetto (1:16:19)
without a coil as well.
Yeah, it does.
Balz Müller (1:16:54)
I'm working on the wireless system, but it's just not there yet. Also with the wireless bridle system, you know, but it's no, but
Daniel Paronetto (1:16:55)
Yeah.
No. Yeah, that would be amazing.
Balz Müller (1:17:08)
So safety leash. I haven't heard of people using the line cutter yet because what I personally think as well is the power wing doesn't really fly if not all the lines are actually under tension. So I think there's not a big risk of using it on the flat lake and getting tangled in the lines and then cutting off a finger like in kitesurfing. It's not like the lines. There is potential. There's less pressure, but there's not like the
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:15)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, there's, there's less pressure. There's potential. You can't say you're not going to. Yeah.
Balz Müller (1:17:37)
the guitar is not swinging like a kite does but when we're talking about risk and white water I've got like nightmare tangles in the white water and I mean if you're in the white water and you've got this four, five meter square meter power wing and it blows up in the white water pulls you along and you're on these lines Michael my friend
Daniel Paronetto (1:17:40)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Balz Müller (1:18:06)
again he almost cut off his finger it was ridiculous and it was such a stupid not a mistake because he he packed a parowing the white water caught him and as he just packed the parowing he got still the lines in his hat like literally a second later he would have been fine but just in white water be aware you're playing with fire but then like just stuff the parowing however you want to stuff it we haven't talked about that point like there's so many different options
Daniel Paronetto (1:18:07)
That's messy.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
True.
Balz Müller (1:18:36)
I still
love the kangaroo just under the lycra technique. It's simple and easy. The belts are complicated so far. But maybe, I mean not maybe, I'm sure there will be like some simple easy easy easy techniques coming around.
Daniel Paronetto (1:18:40)
It's simple. Yeah, I don't like the belts. don't. Yeah.
Yeah
Yeah, look,
I've used the BRM belt, the Flow belts. Look, they're fine. And I use the belt more to take a second pair of wing out to swap, but I don't like the maneuver of stashing. I think there's a better way for us to stow it. It takes too much time. Yeah.
Balz Müller (1:19:05)
Yeah, indeed.
takes too much time, yeah. At the
moment at least, and then it's still, there will be efficient ways coming along for sure. No, but back to safety, white water is a risk. And then I guess it always helps going together with friends is like anyway, the coolest thing you can do, because still, shit can happen, especially when you're freestyling. We talk, I mean, I touch wood again, we haven't seen stupid nightmare foil accidents.
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (1:19:40)
happening more often but still we're playing with knives so that's kinda
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:43)
Yeah, for the
amount of stuff that we do, I'm surprised we don't get hurt more.
Balz Müller (1:19:48)
Likewise, likewise, yeah. So, para-winging, approaching it right, approaching it with respect is definitely smart. And what I keep telling is, if you're learning it, go together with a friend who's capable of doing para-winging already, and then you follow kinda him. I mean, he's taking your wing or whatever wing and then swap over back and forward. And then it's...
Daniel Paronetto (1:19:50)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (1:20:14)
so easy and as well like just recently I was riding so many para wings back upwind and friends were trying and obviously going with the wind so quick so look for the right environment as well like just don't go offshore and expect to to not swim back to the beach
Daniel Paronetto (1:20:21)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Do you think the
power wing will be something that people just getting into foiling will start on? Or do you recommend them having a go with the wing first or something else before they get into it?
Balz Müller (1:20:46)
That's a tricky question. If you ask me three months ago I was sure like you got to have the foiling sensation or what your experience but now with the latest Pearl Wings you literally take it block and play off on the foil like behind the boat. So yeah they're very stable and go to kind of kill the power.
Daniel Paronetto (1:20:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, they're very stable and having the ability
to kill the power but what they also give you is that ability just to lean on it. You don't have to keep looking at it and yeah.
Balz Müller (1:21:16)
Unweight
your body weight and then get up on the foil.
Daniel Paronetto (1:21:22)
getting up on the board and not having to manage it so much, I think is gonna make it super easy for people to get started.
Balz Müller (1:21:24)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
obviously it helps like learning behind the boat is like the easiest thing if someone has a rope and then like just keeps you like on the rope all the time. That's but I'm sure like newbies will have the access of going downwind. Downwind foiling is the next thing. I mean, it's freaking challenging collecting bumps, but just going downwind with the power wing is not a hard thing.
Daniel Paronetto (1:21:35)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (1:21:57)
Maybe it's even going to be appealing with a stand-up paddle but then it's a hassle with the whole logistics. learning it, we will see. It definitely attracts kids. Wherever I go at the beach to kids, they're just loving the toy. And my daughters as well. My daughters as well. Even on the skateboard, she's already blasting around with it. Maybe.
Daniel Paronetto (1:21:57)
Yeah.
Dude, I know and I'm like we can play but be careful
my God, she's going to be the next professional para winger.
Balz Müller (1:22:26)
Who knows?
Daniel Paronetto (1:22:28)
What are your kids into? Are they all into sports? they into music and arts? What are they into?
Balz Müller (1:22:32)
They're...
Well, they're so young yet. mean, Lotte is just... She's three and the youngest one is just turned one. But I can already see that they're very active. She loves jumping the trampoline all day. She loves biking with us and she obviously loves swimming and playing in white water, boogie boarding. We're not going to push her, but if she's motivated and obviously she's motivated to do stuff, we give her the opportunity. And it's funny because...
Daniel Paronetto (1:22:38)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Balz Müller (1:23:01)
By heart I'm a windsurfer and my biggest passion will always remind windsurfing. there can be like 200 windsurfers out on the water. She sees one kite and she's so attracted by that kite. But she can rely too because she's kiting, I mean, just like playing with the kite since ever on the beach. And I guess now the purwing for her is just like a lining. Yeah, exciting.
Daniel Paronetto (1:23:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Amazing man. Balz,
have a lot of notes there. Is there anything that we missed that we didn't talk about that you want to talk about?
Balz Müller (1:23:35)
Yeah well... The ultimate at water sport discipline. Who knows?
Daniel Paronetto (1:23:44)
Yes, well
for some I think I'm already considering it the ultimate. I sold my wings, I actually don't own a wing anymore.
Balz Müller (1:23:53)
which kinda is possible, especially in... I mean, it gives you so much. But still I want to keep the variation foiling. And that's the cool thing. No way!
Daniel Paronetto (1:23:56)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Well, I actually had to sell it because,
you know, if I'm not getting gear, I need to sell some stuff to buy some stuff.
Balz Müller (1:24:12)
That's the bittersweet truth. But at the same time, I see this trend also here on the lake, like the guys, they're frothing so much about parawinging Actually, they're frothing so much about downwind on the lake in Switzerland. It's ridiculous. got... It is. It is. And who thought that in Switzerland we'll be surfing... I mean, the...
Daniel Paronetto (1:24:15)
Yeah.
Yeah. Downwinding is so addictive, man. It's so addictive.
Balz Müller (1:24:38)
The longest fetch we got is 42k km and we're doing 25... Yeah, it's a great distance and we're doing 25 km of solid runs in these short little bumps that keep pushing. Not like Hood River or wherever, I think at your place it's probably also better. But it works and the people, the chats going tomorrow, we got wind again and the chats, they're going off. There's so many active people and...
Daniel Paronetto (1:24:41)
That's amazing. That's a great stint. Yeah.
Nice.
It's nice, it's nice.
Mmm.
Balz Müller (1:25:08)
The funniest thing, we have a lot of pump foilers who's turning now into wind sport freaks. So their access to water spars was actually dog starting. Actually not even water sports, but they've seen dog starting around and you can literally do it on every river here in Switzerland on every lake. So a lot of snowboarders, surfers, skateboarders, they not only it, mean, everyone who's in for a water sports adventure is somehow
Daniel Paronetto (1:25:14)
Nice, coming in from Doc starts. Yeah, that's amazing.
Mm-hmm.
Balz Müller (1:25:37)
getting on a foil and para-wing now. So exciting future and I'm stoked to be part of it.
Daniel Paronetto (1:25:45)
man, you're playing a very important role in, in para winging and getting out there and exploring the limits of this sport. So thanks for, for coming on the podcast. I'm not going to keep you, man. know it's late there. and we, we've been, talking for a long time, so I really appreciate your time, Baals. And if you, if I can any, ever do anything for you as well in retribution for this, just shoot me a message, man. and if you ever come to Australia, let me know. We'll go out and yeah, we'll.
Balz Müller (1:25:54)
It's late, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
will be epic! I'm really looking
forward to actually parrying with all you guys. I'm excited!
Daniel Paronetto (1:26:16)
dude, I'm going to try to get to Hood River
in July. That's when I have my next leaf block. So yeah, if I see you there, man, we'll definitely catch up and, and I'll see what you're, yeah, we'll see what, what you can teach me.
Balz Müller (1:26:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Playing with the gravity.
Or you me. There's always something to learn. We learn every day. Cool.
Daniel Paronetto (1:26:33)
No, Boss, thanks again.
Love the chat. Thanks for your learnings and your energy and your creativity,
Balz Müller (1:26:43)
Yee-pah! Keep it up!
Daniel Paronetto (1:26:45)
Cheers, buddy.
