Daniel Paronetto (00:11)
Alright, here we go. Welcome to the Lab Rat Foiler podcast. My name is Dan and today we have Josh bloody cool with us, mate. Like, what is this? Thanks for joining, man.
Josh (00:23)
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to join a new podcast. I'm so stoked that you've kind of taken the reins with doing a what's it called a Parrowing specific podcast. So I'm really stoked that you're diving deep into this.
Daniel Paronetto (00:38)
Mmm.
Thanks, man.
I appreciate your time being who you are in our sport to come to a new podcast without watching it before and just the vote of confidence to jump on board is awesome. I got my Co t-shirt on today in respects of all the down-winding lords at Code. So thank you very much, Code, for providing us with some amazing gear. So.
Josh, before we start, if anybody's been living under a rock and doesn't know who you are in foiling and where you come from, can you give us a little bit about your background in sports and everything that led you to come to where you are today in foiling?
Josh (01:23)
Yep, so I'm from Sydney, Australia. I got into foiling through my surfing background. I've surfed my whole life and surfing for me was just getting a little bit... It just wasn't really doing it for me anymore. Like the adrenaline rush that I had to try and... Well, not that I'm an adrenaline junkie, but like the thrill that I got out of surfing was dying the more that I was doing it basically because...
to get excited over two foot sloppy surf when there's like a hundred people trying to fight over the same wave that lasts two seconds. That just kind of, I rode so many different boards to try and make it new and fresh, like everything from finless to twin fins to single fins to long boards. you know, each summer or each winter I would try and get a new board to get myself excited. And then it kind of just got to the point where none of that really did anymore. And I had one of my best mates
Standley buzzing past me on hydrofoil and I still had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder where I was like, that kind of looks lame But I was like, wow, he's actually riding around for a half an hour without coming down and then I was yeah He was very kind to let me have a go at it and then at the same time another good friend of mine Jeremy Wilmot was buzzing around on his foil so I was pretty lucky to have some really really good foilers living right near me that
Daniel Paronetto (02:30)
Hmm.
Josh (02:50)
were really the trailblazers of the time because no one else was foiling and these guys were just doing it even though like there was definitely a culture from surfers and still to this day where they don't like foilers but they kind of just didn't really care they just loved it so they did it and I kind of got my attention because I was like I love doing everything in the water and I just wanted to have that in my tool belt as something else that I can do when you can't surf really good waves
Daniel Paronetto (02:55)
Hmm.
How long did it take you to get going on the foil when you actually got one under you?
Josh (03:26)
I was kind of lucky because I've done a lot of toe surfing in the past so my first introduction was getting pulled behind a jet ski. I knew how to get pulled up with the toe rope and
Daniel Paronetto (03:38)
Hmm.
Josh (03:40)
we were in like a secluded spot and we're just getting pulled around by the jet ski. And I just had that like, know, mast height management lesson where you get exploded out of the water because you're not used to so much front flip pressure. But after, you know, a few goes at that, I was like holding onto the tow rope and actually managing to keep my height in the same spot. And then, yeah, the progression turned into...
Daniel Paronetto (04:00)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (04:06)
Letting go on to like a knee-high wave and gliding and then when I got that glide on that knee-high wave I was just instantly hooked. I was like, okay, there's something about this, you know, we're flying along Two foot wave and going a million miles an hour as if you're on like a 20 foot wave
Daniel Paronetto (04:23)
Yeah.
And then once you started surfing, you did that for a while. And then what led you into downwind and got you into that?
Josh (04:31)
Just the next progression, I feel like the way that I've seen foiling is that everyone gets into foiling because they want time on foil. Everyone wants to do that two for one. And then when you start getting that two for one in the surf, it turns into a three for one, turns into a 10 for one. And then the next progression is like, I want to foil 10 kilometres down the coast and not four. And then it turns into, want to foil 100 kilometres down the coast and not four. And then now the next progression for me, I think what a few people seen on my Instagram.
recently is mixing my big wave surfing into big wave and big ocean downwinding and that's just just the not like I hate people think that I'm I'm nuts or crazy but it's not really that it's just like trying to always find progression and for me like I used to when I first got into downwinding they're like I've never been in a flow state or a state of like being present for that long of a time like I
Daniel Paronetto (05:07)
Mmm.
Josh (05:31)
to get it when I used to surf big waves you'd have it for the 10 second ride that you got like you're so focused because you don't want to die and then I was getting that for like you know a 30 minute downwind run but then now that I downwind nearly every day you lose that a bit but then when you start adding in bigger conditions smaller foils where you go faster you're just trying to chase that state of presence and flow state so it's kind of scary to know where it's going to go next
because
I feel like it's always edging towards you need to have that balance of danger but then also skill and I think what's really cool with foiling is that foiling has so many different disciplines that if you get to that state where I wouldn't say master but you feel very confident in what you're doing you then just switch to parawinging where you become a complete kook again and then you have to learn from the beginning so but you can kind of use your skills that you've got from other areas
Daniel Paronetto (06:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I love that.
Josh (06:30)
and then mold it all together. So it's endless. I feel like every six months there's a new thing in foiling. There's a new crazy foil, there's a new product that gets you on foil and it's just, it's such an untapped thing that I find like narrow minded surfers who just ride the same surfboard for the last 30 years are fully missing out on. But like I'm not gonna, you know, I'm pretty vocal about how I feel about foiling and I'm very inclusive. Like I want to get all my friends into doing it but like
Daniel Paronetto (06:50)
Aw, dude.
Mm-hmm.
Josh (07:00)
The amount of times where I've got friends who, you know, the surf's not good for surfing, it's amazing for foiling, but they're like, nah, I don't want to try it. And I'm like, I've got a whole garage full of gear. Like, don't even, you don't even have to buy it. Just come over and grab it. I'll give you a lesson for free. just, and like, they just like, nah. And I'm just like, well, you know, you can bring the horse to water, but you can't make a drink. And the thing is like, they're totally missing out on something. if that's, like, if that's what they
Daniel Paronetto (07:13)
Just come, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Josh (07:30)
to do that's what they want to do and I'm not going to force anyone to do it because I know I'm having a hell lot of fun doing it myself.
Daniel Paronetto (07:32)
Yeah.
Look, I was one of those
people when I first saw foiling and I saw people kite foiling. I'm like, oh, that's so bad. I'm never going to do it. I'm going to do it when I'm like 60 years old and I don't have any more knees or whatever. And then after my first session kite foiling, I never touched the twin tip again ever. That was it.
I had two twin tip sessions after that and that was it. So I think foiling taught me to be a little bit more open-minded. So when I saw winging, I had the same reaction. I'm like, that is the lamest thing on earth. People just standing there. And then I started winging and did winging for 12 months and loved it. So definitely a life lesson with foiling there just to be open-minded. So what, and that brings us to where we are today here together talking about power winging, which is the new kind of sensation in foiling.
Josh (08:05)
Thank
Daniel Paronetto (08:24)
People are frothing on it, it's popping up everywhere, every brand is trying to launch their Parawing as fast as possible. where was the first time that you saw it? Was it just online clips or did you actually see it in person?
Josh (08:39)
Mine was online clips and then I was fortunate enough where I was over in Maui and I seen him in the flesh. This was back when I feel like I'm probably wrong, but the main one was just the BRM one. And I seen the guys in Maui ripping around in it. actually contacted, is it Greg from BRM? And he was super nice and he was like, yeah, like if we got time, definitely I'll demo you on and we can.
Daniel Paronetto (09:00)
Yep.
Josh (09:09)
have a go. I ran out of time so I couldn't link up with them but I got to see it in the flesh and then when I came home from Maui I seen a few of the guys here in Sydney had bought the BRM so I seen them in the flesh and they were using them and then also when it really it really showed it's like it's great use was when I went to Hood River and I seen like Sawyer and Sam from Apple Tree and
Daniel Paronetto (09:21)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Josh (09:39)
Hendrix, what's his name? The crazy Armstrong Well anyway, he They all ripping around and like it just looked so good for it. And then I was like
Daniel Paronetto (09:51)
And that was during
the AWSI? Yeah.
Josh (09:53)
Yeah, that was like the one that just went past six
months ago or so. So that it's just like everything just curious to me because like, you know, I, I work for foil drive. So that's like, you know, it kind of cancels out the winging because you can just use your motor. But then what I like about, the parawing is the whole idea of being able to pack it down because for me, I'm, can wing. I'm not an amazing winger, but
Daniel Paronetto (10:04)
Mm-hmm.
Josh (10:23)
like the spots that we've got at home, the wing is always in your way. Like it's not cross off where the wing can like stay just like off to the side. It's always blown into me. And maybe because like, you know, my, wing management isn't amazing, but like it does my head in like it sucks. Yeah. And like,
Daniel Paronetto (10:40)
Yeah, it sucks anyway, even if you're good at it, I think. Yeah.
Josh (10:44)
It's nearly to the point where I'm like this I'd rather just go out foil job because like, you know I've got my motor so close to the board now where it feels like it's not even there. So But in saying that I do love the challenge of getting up on wing. I've been learning how to go switch foot winging tacking and jibing. It's just like
Daniel Paronetto (10:53)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Josh (11:04)
I can go out on flat water and still have fun because I know that like I'm learning something new. And for me seeing the para wing, there's definitely a few spots where, or even like for downwinding, like where we start our run in at Maroubra, it's at least like a 10 minute paddle out to the wind line. know, exactly. could just like, some days when it's like,
Daniel Paronetto (11:20)
Mm-hmm.
Oh, you could cut that in... Yeah.
Josh (11:30)
not much wind, usually, or the wind's like the right direction, I'll catch a tiny wave in the corner and pump like, you know, nearly a kilometre out to the wind line. But that's like exhausting and you can only do that on like a big foil, like you couldn't do that on a little foil and then be out if it was really big.
Daniel Paronetto (11:38)
Mm.
Josh (11:49)
So I'm thinking like if you could parrowing out there and or even like where I live, like the direction sometimes is like not the best. Like it's kind of, it's not onshore, but like it's, you have to cut really hard to make it to the end. So I was thinking if you're parrowing like, know, two kilometres out to sea and then you've got a straight shot at like the end point and then you could be doing really good speeds or times or whatever you want to try and achieve.
Daniel Paronetto (11:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think yeah, you nailed it right there because we, well, I live in a bay and sometimes on the Southwest, it's that cross onshore that we're always peeling left, peeling left to make it to where we want to get to. And now I just go into the bay like five Ks, which takes three minutes. And then as soon as I see a bump that I like, I just drop it and then I have the perfect angle to get to where I want to get to. So.
There's no off days anymore with the, with the parrowing every, you could do upwind and downwinds and all that stuff. yeah, look, the, when, when you're thinking about, you're getting one, right? So you're about to get a parrowing and you're going to start exploring, going out with it. What, what do you feel you need to know that you don't know about it?
Josh (13:06)
I'm terrified to be honest
because I don't have a kiting background. got taught and like for me, winging was like so new. I've never sailed. Didn't know how to read the wing. I feel like now that I have a tiny bit of wing knowledge, I can bring that over to para winging. So I've got somewhat of an idea of how to go across the wind.
Daniel Paronetto (13:12)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Josh (13:34)
But yeah, I'm kind of terrified. I honestly don't even know where to start. So that's why I was like excited to do this podcast because I want to pull as much information out of you as possible. Like when I was just down in Torquay with James and I droned him while he had his para wing out and you know, I was and then in the car park he was letting me use the thing just to feel the wind power of it. And yeah, I'm just like
Daniel Paronetto (13:48)
Yep.
Mmm.
Josh (14:02)
I guess, like everything, I'm gonna start off on a big sub, a big foil and just go for it. Really? I don't know really where to start. Like is that kind of what you would recommend?
Daniel Paronetto (14:10)
Mm.
100
% yeah, just biggest everything. I think James I saw a post he had his like 1540 out on it like It you know, there's no point in trying to go out with a small gear that you want to ride and you're not on foil and you're not learning it So yeah biggest gear How did you feel when you were in the car park with it? Did you were you feeling like you were in control was just dropping out out of your hand?
Josh (14:23)
Yeah, yeah.
Totally. Yeah, not totally.
I feel like with the wind window, can, I understand where to put the, do you call it a kite? What do you call it? Well, just a paroling. Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (14:50)
I call it a kite? I co- it's just- I
think it makes more sense to call it a kite. I hate this parowing name, but call it whatever you want. There's- nobody knows what to call it.
Josh (14:55)
Yeah.
Yeah, so I just,
know where to like, especially with the wing as well. Like I kind of understand where you need to put it. Um, I understand that to power it up, you pull it towards you, right? And then to D power it, you pull the other end and it kind of collapses down. I understand that concept. However, I'm definitely, I can see that.
Daniel Paronetto (15:11)
Yep.
That's right.
Josh (15:23)
it can be tricky whilst you're up. Like, I feel like if you're not confident foiling, it's probably not the right thing to learn straight away, right?
Daniel Paronetto (15:26)
Mmm.
I don't, wouldn't recommend it. I would probably recommend people to, have like a wing lesson and get up on foil on a wing, because if you have to learn how to foil and manage the parrowing, it's a lot. So go behind a jet ski, just learn experience. Like you said, you know, the mass height master that once you're kind of on foil and you're confident enough that you can manage the foil, then try winging, try other stuff. But
Parawinging is something that requires a little bit more understanding and the hardest thing I think for me or for people to understand about the parawing is that unlike the wing, it's not a rigid canopy and it's unstable. It has lines and lines create, you create slack in the lines depending on what you're doing on the water. So when you're trying to jive, for example, you're going to be, you know, running towards the parawing and the lines will slack and you're not going to be able to steer it. You lose complete.
control of it. So you have to keep it powered. So what you were saying before about bringing the power wing to 12 and bringing it down and doing those land drills are super important because you want it to be second nature. When you're out there, you want to be thinking, how do I do this? And you just want to be able to, for example, the way you jive, the way I jive is instead of leaving the kite up and high, if you do that, you're just going to go towards it and it's basically going to fall on your head.
the line slack, you're gonna wear it. But if you pull the bar down and you bring it towards in front of you, that's where the most amount of wind is coming from. And then you twist the bar and then it goes boop and it's now in the right position to go to where you wanna go. But everything happens in a millisecond. So it's just that timing of bring it down, twist, turn, like it comes, but people struggle with the slack in the lines and then.
once you fall, getting it back out of the water, know, line tangles and all that stuff. And then you end up losing 10 minutes in the water, just getting set up to get up again, and then you fall and you do that time and time again. So I think knowing, and basic stuff as well, Josh, like just how to get out in the water, because you have all that stuff with you. The best thing to do is just to stuff it under your rashie.
paddle out and then launch it on the water.
Josh (17:58)
So don't like walk it out with it in the air and hold the board like just stash it and then when you're in the water ready to go then pull it up
Daniel Paronetto (18:06)
If you're on an offshore wind, you can have it up because it's pulling you towards the water. If the wind's on shore, like you said, most of your conditions are cross on or on shore. It's going to be pulling you back and you trying to get to the water and the thing is kind of yanking you back. So just tuck it under your rashy paddle out, launch it in the water. cross shore wind is fine to walk with it out as well. but anything on shore, even if it's a little bit on shore, I just paddle out and take it out and
Josh (18:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (18:36)
And then when you launch it on the water, um, you're getting the flow, the, yep. So the flow has a, a white lead. Yeah. That'll be a good size for you. How much do you weigh? Yeah. Perfect. Um, I'm 82. So it's, yeah, it's a very good size to, to get out on over 15 knots. Um, the other thing that the parrowing sucks at is low wind and it's super frustrating to.
Josh (18:40)
Yeah.
Is it 4? I think it's 4.2 is it? Or 4? Yeah. Yup. I'm 80.
Daniel Paronetto (19:04)
to get out there in low winds because it's in the on land. It feels great because you're static, right? And you're planted as soon as you go to the water and you launch it, you'll boom and it's on and it's pulling you and it's pulling you down wind because you're in the water. So then you lose a lot of that power that you felt on land. You're like, where did it go? It, you know, and so just keep in mind that whatever you're feeling on the water, it's like, you're going to lose at least a third of that power when you get to the water.
Josh (19:19)
yes.
Interesting.
Daniel Paronetto (19:34)
Mmm.
Josh (19:34)
Okay. So would you say, and this is something that I didn't do with winging, which maybe I still should. Would you say the whole skateboard in the car park is a good way to just understand it? Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (19:48)
So much.
So much. And if you can do that, if you have the ability to get a skateboard and you know how to skateboard and do that and you've done it on the wing, do it on the parrowing because you'll notice when you're going downwind and doing that turn, you'll notice what I'm talking about with the slack and the lines and how you, when you have to time the turn of the parrowing before you turn yourself downwind and do a jibe. If you can do that.
Josh (20:11)
Mmm. Okay.
Daniel Paronetto (20:15)
It'll help you man. It's gonna save you so much headaches in the water because relaunching in the water it can be time-consuming and you're gonna be on a long board which will make it even harder because sometimes the the lines go under the board because it's a long board. It's yeah, it sucks. So there will be a bit of swearing out there. Absolutely. I spoke with Dave West the other day and he was like
Josh (20:31)
god. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can imagine that now.
I'm used to that.
Daniel Paronetto (20:44)
Just cursing everything. I'm like, but he's going out in really low winds. So it's, it's not easy.
Josh (20:49)
Yeah,
I actually had, cause I'm a part of there's like a foil drive owners group and it's like a, it's a pretty vocal little community where they just all talk about fuel driving. They love it. But I had someone actually asked me the other day, do you
have you parrowing with the four wheel drive? Would that be nearly a cheat code because you can kind of generate your own speed by motoring but then kind of have the car up in the air and then understand the basics of it or too much going on? Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (21:20)
It's a lot going on, man. I,
I foil drive for the first time just the other day. and just the management of the throttle is so precise and like to have that with the power wing can be a little bit, I mean, it depends. Like if you're really proficient at, foil driving and you can get yourself up on foil and then toss the power wing out and then turn off the foil drive, that could be something, but it's a lot going on. think it's just easier to start without.
Josh (21:34)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (21:50)
that just start with the parrowing because you'll notice once you get going that once you launch or relaunch the parrowing in the water, it doesn't really relaunch perfectly every time. You have to really fold it in a certain way that you know that when you deploy it, the leading edge will be going towards where you're going. It's pointing at the same direction. If it's pointing the other way, it'll launch and it'll pull you back and then you have to.
Josh (21:51)
Yeah.
Okay.
Daniel Paronetto (22:19)
kind of loop it and you can save it sometimes. But most of the time you just lose speed and then you kind of have to reset and get going again. But when you get out there, the water relaunch is important to just to know how to do and it's not hard, but a lot of people just get, they get caught up because it's a lot of lines. It's a big canvas. The 4.2 is quite large and when it's wet, it gets heavy.
Josh (22:46)
Is the actual
canvas larger than like a 4.2 wing? Was it just kind of spread out in more of a horizontal fashion? It's like more higher aspect if that's how you kind of describe it.
Daniel Paronetto (23:01)
Yeah, it would be, but I don't know if for example a four meter para wing has the same area as a four meter wing. I don't know. I'm not quite sure. But if you compare a four meter para wing to a four meter wing, the para wing has less power. So it's slightly three and a half. Yeah. So it's not too much.
Josh (23:11)
Right.
Okay, right what would be like a three meter wing three and a half. Okay, it's not too much less. Yeah
Daniel Paronetto (23:28)
But the problem with the pair wing is that it has a very low wind range and the operating wind ranges give or take five knots. So it's small, a wing you can like 15 knots within 15 knots, you can make it work. If you're underpowered on the pair wing, you're not going anywhere. If you're overpowered, it's hard to hold onto it because it's a truck. It'll pull you. like, it feels like a two line kite that has an on.
an off button. So when it's on in the air, go, poof, all right, it's happening. You'll notice that, okay, I think we have to go now, and you're just gonna go. But I just wanna touch on the water relaunch because a lot of people lose a lot of time on the water with it, and I think if you're out for an hour and half an hour, you're just trying to get the thing out of the water, you're not getting the most out of your session. So the way I water relaunch is I have...
Josh (24:05)
Hmm
Daniel Paronetto (24:24)
Imagine the wind coming sideways here. I have the parrowing downwind and I'm sitting with the board kind of 90 degrees towards it. So I'm creating a little bit of drag. I'm not pointing the board towards it. So my board doesn't pick up speed. And then if the wing is all under the water, I grab the leading edge from one end and I just kind of like do a little, Constantine thing where I'm pulling the leading edge all out of the water. So it kind of like drains a little bit of
everything that it has in it. And then I open a little bit of the canvas and let it gain, like get air, like let that get power. And then I open it up a little bit more. And then when you feel that there's enough in it, you just toss it forward and then it should go up and stay up in the air. And if it's really wet, I just fly it for maybe a minute, let it drain a little bit of that water, you know, give it a few, few tugs. So you'll see all that spray come out and
Josh (25:12)
Mmm.
Daniel Paronetto (25:24)
it gets a little bit lighter and easier to manage. The 4.2 is a big pair of wing and it'll feel a little heavy on the controls if it's super, super wet.
Josh (25:36)
Okay, cool. And but what happens if it does get tangled up? What, you just have to try your best and then if you can't do it then you just gotta head in.
Daniel Paronetto (25:37)
Yeah, but what kind of condition, sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, look, and that's another thing that it's, you'll get better with it once you get more used to how it all works and the construction of the pair wing. And the good thing about the Flow is it has color coded lines, which really helps you manage a tangle when it gets really bad. But you'll notice that you'll have to like pass the bar through lines. Like it takes a little bit to work out, but work out the knot from top to bottom.
So from the front lines down or from the rear lines up. And then just try to like do one line at a time. And then, you you're working your way up and then it'll be free. If you start with the middle lines, you'll still get tangles because you're kind of putting things on top of other things that shouldn't be there. So work your way up or down. That's probably the best way to get rid of knots. And I think just be patient. You know, when you started winging, it's not
Josh (26:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (26:47)
Like you're going to get up. think when I started winging, come from kiting that if I fall, I get my board, I look to cut and I'm out. Like it's so fast. And with winging, I had to take a moment, just like take a breather and then reset. And then like, all right, this is a little slower. It's not bang, bang, bang. So I think just having that patience to reset, have everything working well, put it up, get rid of the water, get your balance on the board and then go. I think people get a little bit.
excited or they want to get going too fast. Just be patient with it.
Josh (27:23)
Yeah, no, I've definitely noticed that like even when you first start winging and like the leash is all getting tangled and you just so it's all new to you and like you just Yeah, you got to be you just it just takes time Experience and then you start figuring out where to put things and how to get that out of your way. I understand that
Daniel Paronetto (27:36)
Mmm.
What
kind of conditions are you going to be going out on? Like what kind of wind?
Josh (27:46)
It's always like, to be honest, it's always like around 12 to 18 knots. Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (27:53)
So that's a little light for the parawing the 12 knot range for the the 4.2m, yeah.
Josh (27:56)
Oh totally, I understand that. even
when I've got my 5 meter wing, like 12 knots is light. But that's kind of like what we get most afternoons. yeah, I've heard that you definitely don't want to take it out. Especially if you've only got like a 4 or 4.2 parawing. You want to take it out when it's windy. Which I totally understand that. But yeah, I just... We've got this epic spot where...
Daniel Paronetto (28:02)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I would.
Josh (28:26)
It's like kind of, it's a little bay and we've got wind that funnels through it. It's a super, so the tack and the, it's super like narrows, the tack and the gybes are super quick, but we do have like a rolling swell that lines up for ages that doesn't really break. And it's super fun to wing, but the thing, the wing always just gets in the way because it's the wind's coming straight down the middle of the narrow bay that it's just like always hitting you and stuff. So I'm super excited to, you know, get up.
Daniel Paronetto (28:36)
That's good.
Mm-hmm.
Josh (28:56)
wind, take it down the power wing and then just kind of surf the waves.
Daniel Paronetto (29:00)
Yeah, you'll get there, man.
And I would stick to just over 15 knots. If it's under 15, take it to the car park, like you said, and do the skateboarding. You'll, man, you'll be light years away of people that are just starting out and not having the ability to do that. It'll take you far. And the 4.2 in 10, 12 knots in the car park will yank you on that skateboard.
Josh (29:09)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mmm.
And I think I'm lucky too, like, you know, I've got big foils, I've got big sups. I feel like a lot of wingers, all they've got is like a five foot wing board that's a sinker. And they're so used to going out when it's only really windy. Versus like, you know, I've got the tools to give me the best chance to get going.
Daniel Paronetto (29:33)
Mm. Mm.
Josh (29:44)
So yeah, I just need to figure out exactly what that wind range is and get out there and do it. That's the main thing. It's just doing it. Hey, I need to learn for myself where the limits are. Like, you know, obviously you're telling me 12 knots is probably too light, but I like to test those things myself, even if I have a shocker because...
Daniel Paronetto (29:53)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I love that.
Josh (30:06)
You
know, I've got an 8 foot 4 board, 120 litres, I've got a 1540 foil. I should be able to get that thing up in walking speed. I should be able to just step off the rock and pump away on it.
Daniel Paronetto (30:09)
Yep.
Check it on.
You
I'm yeah, I'm I
kind of have a similar approach remember when I started down winning with the paddle I went on like six kilometer downwinders and just like floated for three hours and I'm like nah I'm building the muscles that I need for this sport and like you know like I just eat it and I'm I like to yeah just to make it painful sometimes for myself but
Josh (30:39)
You
have to experience it. There's only so much people can tell you, I'll do this, don't do that. And I learn from only my mistakes. I don't learn from other people's mistakes. I need to go through that failure. And then usually I need to go through that failure a few times before it really sinks in. I got a knucklehead.
Daniel Paronetto (30:47)
Mmm.
Are
there any other power wingers in your area that could go out with you or?
Josh (31:03)
I haven't seen any to be honest, no. Like I've just seen wingers, yeah. I haven't, like the only power wingers I've seen have been over the bridge on the Northern beaches of Sydney, which is about an hour drive away from me. I've seen a few power wingers over there. However, in like in the city beaches where I'm from, I haven't seen any power wingers, but I'm super keen to, you know, lead the way on it.
Daniel Paronetto (31:05)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
dude, I'm well, look, I'm happy you you came on to have a chat. Do you have any other questions about getting started or I think our debrief, just to let everybody know, we're doing a part one and part two. This is part one where Josh is just excited about it. Part two will be once he goes out, has a few sessions, gets up and then we'll do a debrief on everything we spoke about here and what that how that reflected in the water.
But yeah, look, if you have any other questions, you can shoot me a DM anytime and.
Josh (32:05)
I feel like you've gone through all the basics where it's just now it's just I need to get out there and do it. So. yep. Don't use it.
Daniel Paronetto (32:11)
Yeah, one more thing. The Invis-Leash. Don't use it. I love that leash. It's
the best leash I've ever used for anything, but the coil, will create mayhem with the lines because it's super hard to untangle once that gets caught in the coil. And if you have any, if you have, like, I don't know how well you know the guys at Keoh-He, but if you know them, ask them to do...
Josh (32:24)
god.
Daniel Paronetto (32:39)
like a pair of wing leash, which is just maybe that gray bit. yeah, yeah. So I, yeah, I bought something off Amazon for like seven bucks, which is just, just the stretchy leash with like some webbing on top. And that works really well, but don't use the, the, the coil because it, oh man, it's so hard. And even when you're up and you, um,
Josh (32:43)
yeah, you just want the dynamo, like the bungee bit. Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (33:07)
Like you depower and you're putting it away and stashing it away. Sometimes it just gets caught and then you launch it and then your leash goes boom and you're like, and then you're down. Yeah.
Josh (33:14)
wow. Okay.
I'm I don't know if this is the best practice because I'm not a hardcore winger, but I really don't like using a leash when I go winging because it's just another thing that gets caught around things. You know, it's not ideal because sometimes when you fall off the board might go 10 meters away, but I usually just swim to it and I can get it. And that leads me to my next question is you're not attached to the para wing are you?
Daniel Paronetto (33:25)
Mmm.
I don't, I've seen people put a little leash on it, yeah, on the bar, and if you are going to put a leash on it, you put it on the brake lines, so the rear lines. You could just put a little carabiner there or something, and if you let go, it's the same thing of like, de-powering it, yeah. But in saying that, like, for the use that, you know, ultimately, you're going to use it for, which is getting rid of it.
Josh (33:48)
Where on the bar?
Okay.
pulling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (34:11)
All of those things create tangle hazards. So I don't even use a harness line on the bar. Like people use a harness and they like to, you know, ride with it hooked in. I got rid of it because the little hook on your belt, it tangles like that little hook. It'll get caught in the line. So I got rid of it. I'm just riding on hooked with no attachment, no leash. And if you do let go of it in the water, it floats.
It'll float for five minutes before it starts to sink. Um, it doesn't sink, but just imagine like, you know, a sheet in the water, it starts to get w like filled up with water and all of a sudden it's, it's just in the water, but it doesn't sink like a rock. It just, yeah, it'll just be there. And then it gets really heavy to pull out. Cause you're just like basically.
Josh (34:44)
Also, we'll sing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Do you pull it
by the bar or do you pull it by the material?
Daniel Paronetto (35:06)
I pull it by the material. you pull it by the bar, what you're going to do is you're going to capture all that water and then it's just going to be really hard to pull up. just get the leading edge, one side of it and just pull it up, like I said, and then just do those little concertinas and let it drain out. But that's a really good point. the safety around it and how people are taking it is very different. I don't like to be attached to it. I think it's actually safer to just let it go.
Like if I have any problem with it, I don't want to be attached to it.
Josh (35:40)
Yeah, James actually was like telling me that you can just let it go and it doesn't go down wind like it might go down wind for 10 meters but then it just stays there because like what you said it kind of goes a little bit underwater and it just like is a huge parachute catching water so
Daniel Paronetto (35:51)
Mm.
Yeah, it takes a lot of
time for it to fill with water. If you're in the surf, a little bit different, if it gets caught in the wave, immediately it's already in the water. And then sometimes it's even hard to find it because it's like a couple inches below the surface and you can't see it. So the bright colors of the flow help a little bit to spot it. But I've done sessions where I have a small parrowing in my pouch. I'm with a 4.2 and have the three. It's two.
like too strong, I go near the shore, I just toss it and then I get the three out, I pump a little bit and put the three out and then keep going with that and I'm like alright and then you know the boys will get it. Someone will get it.
Josh (36:28)
wow.
That's what I'm honestly,
that's what I'm super excited about is the ease of traveling with it. Like it looks like it packs into a brick pretty much, right? And then even the brick, can squish down because it's like super soft material.
Daniel Paronetto (36:46)
You could put three pair of wings in a backpack, maybe four. If you're riding.
Josh (36:51)
in
like a wing backpack, like four can fit in that.
Daniel Paronetto (36:55)
Like a carry-on to like a backpack that you take on in the airplane or yeah, it would be if you get them side by side, one wing bag is three pair of wings. Yeah.
Josh (36:59)
Yeah, well.
Incredible that's that's
that's what I'm really excited about because I'm going to X mouth in like three weeks and I'm super keen to bring the wing there because the power wing because it's
Daniel Paronetto (37:13)
Sick. Take it.
Josh (37:18)
I heard it's amazing there for sailing. then also in September, I'm going to Namotu where that's the best wing wave that I've ever winged. The wing kind of just floats off to the side, but I'm even more excited to now pack it away so it's not even with you. it's, super ex... Yeah, I feel like, especially like goofy footer, I feel like those spots are, they're made for it.
Daniel Paronetto (37:28)
Mate.
Yeah, those are some good spots.
You need to
hit up a couple of guys in the West Coast. There's a lot of para wingers there. I'll shoot you one of the guys, Svenny Foyles. I don't know if you've seen him.
Josh (37:50)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
I didn't meet him but I seen him out in the water when I was there in November. He was always out there on the power wing. He loves it.
Daniel Paronetto (38:04)
Yeah, he's
frothing. We're gonna chat later today, 12 o'clock. We're talking to Svenny, the tall man. But yeah, look, again, those were some really good points. Safety-wise, I prefer to be unattached. Less tangles as soon as you put a clip on the bar. That's another thing that will be caught on when you get into a mess. So I avoid it, but depends on how much you wanna preserve your pair of wing if something does happen.
Josh (38:10)
Epic. Yeah.
Hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (38:35)
Worst case scenario, let it go. It'll float forever. It's gonna be safer than the wing. The wing kinda starts to catapult downwind.
Josh (38:42)
Mmm, I've never let go of a wing
No, I just haven't done that but I did hear in Dylan's podcast the X foils. He said he did lot it did lose a parrowing by letting go
Daniel Paronetto (38:51)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
I know, what was
that story about? He said I lost the North Paraling, wasn't it? Yeah.
Josh (38:58)
Yeah, I think it was a prototype one,
but I don't remember the exact story, but I remember him saying he let go of it, but then he lost it. But I don't know if that's because it sunk or don't know if it tumbled downwind or... Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (39:12)
Yeah, I'm curious to see
what happened there because it takes quite a while and you'll notice it. You could just practice this for a little bit. Just let it go and see what happens. It takes a while to sink. So I think it might've been caught in the wave or something. And then he just, he couldn't see it in the water because yeah.
Josh (39:20)
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then the last question I want to ask you is who's making the best fun right now?
Daniel Paronetto (39:36)
man, that's such a hard one to answer because all of them work. All of them work. mean, like there's the big three that are out there right now. The BRM, the Flow and the Ensys. Those are probably the ones that most people have access to right now. And they all have things that they excel in. I think the BRM is the best one for stowing. It just packs down really small. The material they use is like very silky, almost cloth-like. It's not like a kite that's crispy. So
It's easy to get the air out once you depower it, it packs down at very small. So for people riding waves or need that fast depower, like they want to get rid of it quick, the BRM is probably the way to go. But then it doesn't fly as well as the flow because it always requires you to have some tension in the rear lines.
If you just ride it on the front lines, it collapses and it doesn't like that. So you always have to have a little bit of pressure on the front, on the back lines. And the flow is something that is incredibly stable. Like you can lean on it in the water when you're getting up on the board, you'll notice you can yank it and it's going to just hover there. It doesn't really react that much, like the BRM or the enses. So for a beginner,
I think that stability is super important. You want to not have to think about the parrowing. You want to just be able to find your balance, get going. So I think it's more of a user friendly version of the BRM, along with having the color coding in the leading edge. You'll notice that once you get riding, knowing what you have in your hand, when it's a pile of canvas and you don't know what to do, like you can see the color, you look at the colors and you're like, I know where my leading edge is. This is where I'm tossing it.
I'm tossing it that way that helps heap some people are actually dying the BRM certain bits of it so they can see When they're holding it where it is and the color coding on the lines helps the enses is Very light in the bar. It has a very good construction. The bar is super nice. It has When you look at the bar, it has a little bit of a curvature and it's a molded bar so if the lines get caught in the bar it just kind of
Josh (41:32)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (41:54)
Like pulls out it doesn't get caught the BRM and the flow they have webbing's so sometimes the lines get Stuck in that little webbing and they don't go through the line But I feel the the ensis is also kind of like the BRM. It's a it's a little bit erratic It requires you to be a very good kiter or like a good have good kite control to hone it and the Depowering ability of the BRM and the ensis are a little bit
Josh (41:56)
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (42:24)
lacking. So to depower it, you just have to sink a rail. And like that's how you hold the power. The flow, you just ride it on the front lines and it kind of like lets that air go through as much as it can. So I don't know like which one is the best. I ride the flows because to me, I don't really need that super fast depower. Like if I'm doing a downwind or I'm happy to take another 10 seconds to stow it, it's not going to, you know, really ruin my experience.
But when I'm in tour key with the boys and we're riding ways, then you kind of notice that you want something a little bit more, you know, packable, a little bit quicker to pack. But I think for someone who's starting out, the flow is a great option to get going and stable and easy predictable.
Josh (43:12)
How quick should I get into the downwind scenario or should I just like stay in the bay for until I'm completely confident or should I just roll the dice and go for its first session?
Daniel Paronetto (43:22)
The thing with you that you like
the you have a benefit that if once you're on foil You'll pump your way out of anything. Like you just need to maybe just practice on land the movement of depowering running your hands through the lines and then This is something good to talk about. So once you get riding and you're ready to to maybe try to stow it And I learned from Cynthia
Josh (43:30)
Mm.
Daniel Paronetto (43:49)
Brown, we had an interview the other day, she rides in Maui, legend. And there's stowing, which is putting it in the belt, and then wadding, which is what they call it in Maui, when you just have it in your hand and you're just riding it, you're not stowing it, you just wanna de-power and then relaunch it quickly. But if you're wadding, like you just wad it up into a little bunch. I'm trying to...
Josh (44:07)
What do they call it? Wadding.
Daniel Paronetto (44:16)
to respect the original creators of the sport and using their terminology. So if you're stowing it and putting it into your belt, want to, let's say this is the bar, that's the top of the bar, this is the bottom. You're going to point the bar towards the parrowing and then you're gonna run your hand through the lines. And when you do that, a lot of people, they go with their front hand towards the parrowing, pull your back hand towards the back.
Josh (44:20)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel Paronetto (44:44)
you know, keep that position and then you just, it's just easier and you get the most amount of stretch that you can. And then once you have that in your hand, the bar goes under your armpit and then you grab the canvas from the back and you hold the lines that are in your hand through the back. So then you have like the core of your little stash that will keep the lines intact. And then once you have that, you start to just bunch it up into that.
core and then you put it in your belt. But what I would suggest first is get to this point and then just hold it and then do your downwinding, do some small runs and then redeploy it. It's really important to get that redeployment right and you'll notice that sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. So once you get going, pull it down, ride a little bit, look at where the white bit of
the canvases that's where the direction that it will want to go towards and then that's where you launch it to and then you ride in that direction as well. That'll be fun to see. You should have a GoPro out when you do that just so we can hear all the cursing going on. Because it will happen.
Josh (45:59)
You know,
I definitely I think the first session will definitely be no GoPro but Once I get the hang of it and I've got a spare hand to film or I don't know where I'm gonna put the GoPro or just get a drone to follow me, but I'll
Yeah, I'm excited to hopefully show you that I can do it. Hopefully it's not all fails. But I appreciate all the tips and I can't wait. I think it should be in the mail any day now. So, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (46:22)
Dude, you're gonna nail it.
Take it to X-Mouth. I think you'll get some proper win there. And obviously if you go to Nemo to take it with you as well.
Josh (46:40)
Yeah,
yeah, definitely. No, I think the ease of traveling with it is huge. at the end of the year, I'm going back to my wife's hometown, which is like Minnesota. It's like the middle of America and it'll be like snowing and everything, but they get wind. So I'm keen to like just throw that in my backpack and like whether I'm like on skis or something can, yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (46:52)
Mm-hmm.
It is snow.
Yeah.
I've seen people do
that already. I saw a video of someone with a BRM in the snow. They're not riding powder. I think it's too much for powder, but like a groomed run, absolutely. You'll get it going. Josh, thanks again. I'm gonna let you go, but once you wanna catch up again and do a debrief, shoot me a message, we'll hook it up, and thanks again for everything that you do for the sport as well, man. All the information that you put out is kind of...
Josh (47:14)
Yeah.
Daniel Paronetto (47:31)
Yeah, an inspiration for me to do all this and get going with my stuff as well. So yeah, thanks for all the help you do for the community, man.
Josh (47:40)
Thanks Dan, I appreciate that. I just love this sport, this hobby and I just hope that it grows as big as what we all think it's gonna get and even if it doesn't, like I'm just stoked all the people I've met so far and the fun that I've had. yeah, hopefully in a month I can give you a call and let you know that I'm ripping on the power wing or not just getting dragged around by it. yeah. All right, thanks again. See ya.
Daniel Paronetto (48:02)
100 % man, you'll be living the dream. Catch ya brother.
